Toto Drake vs Entrada, first Toto

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Scott.MI

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So I've never even heard of Toto before finding this site on google, but now considering getting one after lots of reading. Currently considering between the Drake CST744SL (1.6) and the Entrada CST244EF (1.28). Water/sewer cost is not very much so water use is not a big factor, but I'm not against getting a lower priced toilet AND saving water if the quality is equal in the toilets.

Entrada - The tank is smaller on this so does that mean there is a less powerful flush since it doesn't hold as much water so would create less head pressure? Is the fill valve and flapper the same as the drake? If it's different, is it also available at the big box stores and which ones would they be? I ask because I seen a thread where someone comment on the entrada that it had an interesting new flapper.

How do the bowl rinses on these 2 compare? How do they overall compare? Has anyone replaced any of the 3 inch flush valve Mansfields with one of these and comment on what you noticed? Previously was considering the Mansfield Summit 3 and did install one at my Grandma's a while back.

Anything I should know that I may not have found researching to consider when making my decision?

Scott

cst244ef-pic-13.jpg
 
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WJcandee

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Here's the overview:

The Entrada has the same flush engineering as the Eco-Drake 1.28 CST744EL. That flush is effectively the same as the regular Original Drake CST744SL. Because the regular Drake and the Eco-Drake both use exactly the same bowl, which is designed to work on 1.28, you're really not getting anything from the extra water on the "SL" as opposed to the EL. ("S" is 1.6, "E" is 1.28)

The Entrada has a 1000g MAP rating (which measures ability to process volumes of waste). That's just plain awesome. It really doesn't get any better. And Terry's real-world experience is that customers like them. This toilet is positioned to be the new "entry level" ("Entrada", get it?) Toto as far as price goes, and Terry has repeatedly said that it is an exceptional value.

I'm the one that made the comment about the flapper. What that is is Korky's new flapper design, with plastic rather than rubber hooks that attach to the overflow riser's "wings". It gives you the benefits of plastic in certain places and rubber in others. That same flapper is similar in design to Korky/Toto's new "universal" Toto flapper (2023CM at HD), which is made by Korky and available at Home Depot. Now that 3" flappers are standard, you will never have a problem finding an aftermarket flapper that fits. Korky already had a 3" universal flapper that works in any 3"-flush-valve Toto (3060CM at HD), as well as some non-universal flappers that fit many Totos (e.g. 2021CM at HD); this new design is now an "official" Toto part.

The fill valve in there is a version of the Korky 528, which is in my view the best of the 3 different manufacturers' fill valves used by Toto. Years from now, when the moving parts of that valve need to be replaced, you yourself can buy a $4 part (R528) at Home Depot, and change just that part in less than five minutes without taking the valve out of the toilet, and be back in business for years more. It's so easy that Terry often tells customers how to do it over the phone (as will the manufacturer, Korky), saving them the price of a service call. The Korky guts are all Made in the USA (Wisconsin), if that's a consideration for you.

I think that ultimately, the Entrada is going to take a lot of business from the Original Drake, because it's a very-high-quality toilet at a favorable price point. And I think Toto expects that.

A couple of other thoughts: First, both the Drake and the Entrada (and most other modern low-flow toilets) develop head pressure by putting more water in the tank than actually dispensed. Each toilet will only use 1/2 to 1/3 of the amount of water in the tank when flushing; the weight of the extra water helps develop head pressure. All Toto tanks, with their 3" flush valves, are going to provide more-than-adequate pressure to do the job. Second, "pressure" isn't anywhere as significant a factor in a well-designed gravity toilet as is the trapway. Remember that a gravity toilet doesn't "push" the waste from the bowl; it develops a siphon that "pulls" the waste through the trapway and into the home's DWV system (drain, waste, ventilation), which starts at the flange/closet bend in the floor. Toto's trapways are patented, and are the best in the business. They were the first to develop a trapway that works very well on smaller amounts of water, much of which has been attempted to be duplicated, belatedly, by others. Their engineering and production quality (and quality control) is first rate.

I think Terry's advice in another post is the best: in this general price range, you have the Entrada, the Original Drake and the Original Drake with the New Tank (which is not functionally-different, just aesthetically different). CST744ELN for the latter. Just pick the one you like the looks of best, that suits your price considerations, and buy that one. You will be very happy with it.

As to purchasing, be aware of what the street prices on these should be by doing some research (e.g. online). We don't recommend purchasing online for "ethical" reasons and because the arrived-broken rate is so high (which has driven up the prices of online sellers, by the way). You can also look at Terry's prices above, which are fair. Terry's installation charge is the bargain of the century, however, given everything that he gives his customers (new line to the wall, expert installation of Totos with Unifit adapters, which these don't require, etc.).

What I personally recommend, and have received a lot of good feedback for, is the following: decide on the exact model and color that you want. Open the Yellow Pages (remember them?) to the section called Plumbing Supply and pick out at least FIVE nearby sources. Even if they don't advertise Toto, virtually all can get it from their suppliers, and many don't advertise it even if they carry it because they think only plumbers have heard of Toto. Call them and ask what their price would be if you came in today and bought/ordered/paid-for that exact model and color. At least one will be rude. At least one will be nice. At least one will have some stupidly-high price. At least one will have a very good price. And at least one will be nice and have a good price. Then you can decide who you want to do business with. Advantage: when it comes in if it isn't in stock you can look at it with the guy right there in the shop and make sure that it's not cracked or broken. And you have a place nearby to return it to if you discover a problem when you get it home.

Good luck, and come back with any questions!!

The new Korky/Toto universal flapper, available at Home Depot for like $13:

9af0c0ce-cbd2-4663-bad2-52f9eb33e943_400.jpg
 
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Reach4

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Here's the overview:

The Entrada has the same flush as the Eco-Drake 1.28 CST744EL. That flush is effectively the same as the regular Original Drake CST744SL. Because the regular Drake and the Eco-Drake both use exactly the same bowl, which is designed to work on 1.28, you're really not getting anything from the extra water on the "SL" as opposed to the EL. ("S" is 1.6, "E" is 1.28)
Having the same bowl would presumably mean the same size water spot and refill amount. Presumably that extra water would mean a little more flush action, I would think.
 

Wallijonn

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Anything I should know that I may not have found researching to consider when making my decision?

The Entrada will be closer to the wall (both top and bottom). The Entrada looks like the seat lid will be closer to the tank when it is up (the Drake seems has about 2.5" of 'space' between the tank and the toilet seat).

Personally, I think the Entrada looks like it will appeal more to women (rounded lines) and the Drake will appeal more to men (angular lines). But, the Entrada looks classier, to me. I know it's an illusion, but where the tank lid meets the tank it looks like a gold band going across the top.
 

Scott.MI

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Thanks wjcandee, very informative. I remember seeing your other posts regarding calling the plumbing supply stores, good stuff. I like the idea of the Entrada being priced where it is and having the bonus of using less water, but not so sure about look of the smaller tank. My wife did NOT like it at all in the picture I showed her. May end up going with the 1.6 Drake as the tank is bigger and gives it a more traditional look as well as filling the space better. But, with all decisions I make, I'm sure I will change my mind about 10 more times before an actual decision is made.
 

WJcandee

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As I say, they're all within a similar price range, and finding one that you like the looks of is important. That 1.6 Drake has the same tank as the 1.28 Drake. That is, you can get a CST744EL and it will look exactly the same as the CST744SL. The one has the ST743S tank and the other the ST743E tank. The porcelain on the two tanks is identical, only difference is the fill valve adjustment and flapper (leading to a different period of time that the flapper stays open by like a second or less). That is, they take the ST743 tanks coming down the line, and put the "E" fill valve and flapper in one and the "S" fill valve and flapper in the other. That's the only difference.

Again, if your wife likes this look, it's the Original Drake with the new "N" tank:

toto-cst744en-01.jpg;width=300;height=300;bgcolor=White


As shown, it's the CST744EN. In the elongated ADA-height, it's CST744ELN.

We have a CST744S and a CST743S (round Original Drake). Love them.
 

SteveW

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If you are concerned about bowl wash (and I take it you are), consider a Toto with the "double cyclone" system. With that system, water enters the bowl through 2 large ports under the rim, rather than a series of small holes. Works great - I have 3 Totos with this system.

The Drake II has it.
 

Wallijonn

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Entrada - The tank is smaller ... does that mean there is a less powerful flush since it doesn't hold as much water, so would create less head pressure?

I tend to think that the "beveled" tank sides will help funnel the water more efficiently.

I have a regular height Drake 1.28gpf and an ADA Drake 1.6gpf. I prefer the bowl on the ADA Drake but see little difference in flushes, so I tend to suggest that the Drake ADA 1.28gpf is probably the best bang for the buck. For me, I find that the regular height Drake tends to splash more, either sitting down or standing up. So I end up cleaning it more often than the ADA.

As far as cleaning goes, I find that there is a little more cleaning necessary with liquid-solids, with either Drake. I clean it immediately since I don't want the spots to harden, as it will make cleaning a lot harder later on.
 
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Also, i've seen that mansfield has been copying toto in some ways. The new barrett toilet looks like this and i was wondering if they are related to each others. Is there any specific reason why every company wants to copy the drake in some ways?
 

WJcandee

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Axtually, that Mansfield Barrett is a very nice looking toilet. Concealed trapway without being skirted. Nice lower front of bowl. It's one of the better-looking toilets that I have seen, certainly for $235. ADA Height, Elongated. Too bad I have no confidence in its performance. 3" flush valve; allegedly 800MAP

115_106.jpg
 
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Wallijonn

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Is there any specific reason why every company wants to copy the Drake in some ways?

Because siphonic is the way to save water and get a good flush. The AS Cadet 3 Dual Flush is siphonic but it gives more of circular bowl wash as it flushes and it takes awhile for it to complete. With the Toto Drake the bowl wash isn't as nice but the waste is gone in about 2 seconds instead of about 5 seconds.

YouTube video
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Go to Youtube.com and copy/past the above into their search box and hit the search button.

What they really should be concentrating on is their QA/QC and hiring employees who exhibit pride in their work.
 
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Jadnashua

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FWIW, the Drake II (and all of the Totos with the II designation) have two outlets at the rim that swirl the water...been around for awhile now, and the others have begun copying it, as it works, just like the original Drake!
 
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