toto drake not shutting off crisply

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by starfieldroad, Aug 18, 2008.

  1. starfieldroad

    starfieldroad New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Hi everyone,

    Our Drake is about 9 months old and is no longer closing its valve sharply. Instead there is a not so brief "fuhweeeahhhh" noise as the valve takes its last sips of water and then it shuts off.

    We have high water pressure.

    A toto Carlyle was installed at the same time and is not having this problem. The Carlyle is on the 2nd floor, the drake is on the ground floor.

    We're a 2 person household, the drake gets the most flushes per day.

    ideas?

    Thanks to everyone on here - this site has been an enjoyable and helpful resource to us for a while.
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,137
    Location:
    New England
    How high is the water pressure? It can put a lot of strain on not only the toilet fill valves, but the washing machine and possibly dish washer hose along with that to the icemaker. You really might want to consider a pressure reduction valve if it is high.

    There might be a little crud built up on the seal. It's quick and easy to take apart the valve. You may want to pick up a replacement seal (assuming it is a Korky valve) at a plumbing supply or Lowes ($2-3). Replacing it may solve the noise issue if it isn't some dirt. The real long-term fix may be a PRV and expansion tank.

    http://www.terrylove.com/korky/
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2008
  3. starfieldroad

    starfieldroad New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Thanks for your prompt thoughts.

    Home inspector said water pressure is close to 120psi.

    Last year I spoke with our plumber about this and the idea of a PRV. His take was that he often gets called out to remove them after he's put them in since people are unhappy with the drop in pressure. I asked about any concerns in terms of, uh, pressure or wear on faucets etc but he didn't think there was a significant issue.

    We've only been here a year so I cannot comment on pressure related failures / premature wear on anything like the washing machine etc. Previous owners had been here 5-7 years and didn't mention anything specific. Supply lines are all copper (having replaced galvanized, the house is 100 years old).

    thanks for the link on the seal / Korky issue, I'll look into that.

    thanks again.
  4. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    USA
    120? :eek:

    I wonder what it's like to take a shower in that?

    And do glasses break when you turn on a faucet to fill them with water?

    I am at about 70-80psi and that is enough thank you.

    Poor little Korky valve.
  5. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    You need to install a Pressure Reducing Valve (PRV) & a Thermal Expansion Tank on your water heater. By code pressure should be regulated to less than 80 PSI.
  6. Herk

    Herk Plumber

    Messages:
    547
    Location:
    S.E. Idaho
    In my opinion, 60PSI is more than enough to be dangerous. If you've got 120 lbs of static water pressure, you've got a catastrophe in waiting. Unhappy about the drop in pressure? You'll be more unhappy when you come home to a couple of feet of water.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,137
    Location:
    New England
    You're lucky the toilet valves and the washing machine hoses haven't burst...put in BOTh the PRV and an expansion tank and I think that problem will go away.
  8. starfieldroad

    starfieldroad New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    hahaha. thanks for the vivid imagery guys. jinx.

    the water hammer is impressive at times.

    we use low flow showerheads so it's not like we're pressure washing ourselves.

    I'll talk to our plumber about getting a PRV and thermal exp tank installed.

    might not be a bad idea to verify the PSI reading that the home inspector took too, just in case.

    thanks.
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,121
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Where I'm at, anything over 80 PSI is a required pressure reducer and expansion tank.
    I'm surprised your plumber didn't know that.

    In Kent, I saw a house with a leaking T&P valve on the water heater with pressure that was 120 PSI and more.
    Water pressure goes up at night as the towers fill, and nobody is using the water.
    A T&P is set to 150 PSI, not a lot more than what you already have.
  10. kingsotall

    kingsotall Plunger/TurdPuncher

    After a day running gas/pipe threader I could definitely go for the 120 PSI shower. :)
  11. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I wonder what a showerhead on the jetter would be like.... LOL
  12. starfieldroad

    starfieldroad New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    for the PRV and tank: are there brands or configurations I should prefer / demand? A gauge on each side of the PRV is the way to go, right?

    Does it make sense shopping for these myself (online or otherwise) and just having the plumber on hand for the install?
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,121
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    These are normal "on the truck" items for a plumber.
  14. starfieldroad

    starfieldroad New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    the update:

    Well pressure it was. I confirmed this in the days before the plumber came by reducing the flow on the supply line valve.

    Consumers should not assume that anything is on the truck. The representatives of a 100+ year old company had no pressure gauge -- to test the current water pressure in the house -- and only knew of one colleague who may have had one, none at the shop.

    Nor did they have any gauges to install on either side of the PRV. So we are at PSI unknown right now since we've fiddled with it a bit. Expansion tank, no problem.
  15. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    I'd find another plumber.
    I have 2 gauges on my truck!
  16. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,358
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    I change plumbers, this guy doesn't have a clue about excessive pressure. Gauges are cheap. Less than $15 at virtually any hardware store. You can't reduce pressure with a valve. That will reduce flow, but pressure remains the same no matter what the pipe size or valve opening. Many people mistake low flow for low pressure, especially older homes with ancient galvanized pipe that has corroded to the point there is a pencil sized hole for water. Pressure measures normal, but the water flow is a trickle. Adjust your new PRV and expansion tank to about 60 psi. That's plenty. In fact, I have mine set at 50 psi and everything work just fine.
  17. starfieldroad

    starfieldroad New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Kentucky
    just an update to this thread:

    1.) have not had to replace any of the original toilet components since the flow was reduced in 2009.

    2.) One mistake I made was in not contacting the municipal water utility / engineering to see if they had any responsibility for the pressure of water supplied at the service entrance or any capacity to modify that. In retrospect, I should have done that first.

    3.) fluid dynamics: http://sci301.uvi.edu/Plumbing/FluidDynamics.html
  18. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,358
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    It is not the city's responsibility to lower the pressure. It is your responsibility to do what is necessary to lower the pressure to safe limits. It was explained to you 3 years ago that you needed a pressure regulator valve (PRV) and a thermal expansion tank. It would be my guess that you have leaking toilet valves because if all valves were good, the T/P on the water heater would open every time them water heater operates. You are running at least double the water pressure necessary for a home. As you were told way back when, 80 psi is the absolute maximum pressure but 50 or 60 psi is still plenty of pressure. Friend, you got good advice when you first posed the problem, you have just ignored it. Sure, you are under no obligation to take our advice, but if you don't want it, why do you ask? Yeah, this is pretty pointed, but take it or leave it.
  19. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Did anyone mention the danger of failure of flex water supply lines at high pressure. And I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME) that you have not had a failure of a rubber washing machine hose at that pressure!
  20. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,893
    Location:
    New York, NY
    You guys who responded to the original poster's update today missed the fact that he did indeed have his plumber come out and do the work in 2009.

    He told us that the plumber didn't have some of the essentials on his truck.

    He was updating us to the effect that now that he got the pressure reduced, he has had no further problems.

    Starfield Road, thanks for the update!
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