Totally confused- no Totos are MaP Premium?

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by VADawg, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. VADawg

    VADawg New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    VA
    Hi all, in the midst of a whole-house renovation. I have been reading about toilets on here for weeks. My contractor wanted to go with Kohler Memoir. I started my research and based on what I read here, decided that Toto was the best and I *had* to have a Toto. My budget is $~400. I really hate the look of the Drake. I like the Promenade but have heard bad things about bowl wash. It seemed like the Clayton was ok- I couldn't find much on it, really, good or bad. I use a lot of tp (I know, I know- my husband threatens to put my on a tp budget!), and I want a good bowl wash. I've heard many of the Totos don't have a good bowl wash. Anyway, before I bit the bullet on the Clayton and ordered 4 of them, I did a little more digging and checked out the MaP ratings everyone talks about. There are NO Totos on the premium list!? I'm more confused than ever. Have heard good things about AS Cadet 3 and Kohler Highline, should I give up on Toto? Help!
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The guy who designed the MaP tests says anything over 500 is great. Some manufacturers have figured out how to make them look great on the MaP test, but that doesn't mean they actually work well with the 'real' stuff.

    Depending on how old the current toilets are, they may use anywhere from 3.5 to maybe as much as 7-8 gallons per flush. Those WILL have better bowl wash...there's only so much you can do with 1.6 or 1.28g - but, add in SanaGloss and good design, Totos work quite well. Streaking is mostly a function of diet...some get them, some don't.
  3. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

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    MaP test are greatly overrated. First of all, no low flow toilets have the bowl wash the old water hogs had, but are quite satisfactory for most of us. Yes, occasionally you may need a quite brushing, but that's about it. Second, MaP ratings are somewhat akin to MPG ratings in cars. Interesting, but not really very meaningful. As far a the looks of various models, that's a very personal opinion. Many folks like the skirted styles, but they are a bit more expensive. The exterior looks have nothing to do with the basic functionality of the unit.
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    To get the Premium rating, it needs to be 1.06 gallons or less. There aren't a lot of bowls out there yet that do that.

    TOTO does have a toilet on the premium list that I've installed. It's the TOTO Drake II 1G, which has double cyclone rinse and Sanagloss. 1.0 GPF

    The TOTO Drake II 1G seems to work very well.

    I just took a look at the "Premium" listings by MaP

    Good luck on that.
    There aren't a lot on that list that I would want.

    We've been installing and repair toilets for decades. We work in peoples homes and hear from them, what they like.
    I don't believe in a sterile testing method. For example, the Caroma products on the "Premium" list, are only recommended if bowl wash isn't important on this web site. You can read the complaints about that here, and yet MaP gives them a Premium rating. That's pretty funny. No, make that very funny.

    To get the Premium rating, it needs to be 1.06 gallons or less. There aren't a lot of bowls out there yet that do that.
    TOTO does have the Drake II 1G, which has double cyclone rinse and Sanagloss. 1.0 GPF

    For that matter, the Kohle Memoir or Tresham would have been fine at 1.28 gallon.

    I have been selling a lot of the Promenade and Clayton by TOTO.
    And I'm very partial to the TOTO Soiree and Guinevere.
    Most of what I have been installing is in the 1.28 or 1.60 range.
    1.06 is still pretty new.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  5. VADawg

    VADawg New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    VA
    Hmm, I guess I didn't really understand what the MaP ratings tested. I may still be uninformed about this, but the new lower numbered toilets don't sound like something I like the sound of! I feel like the 1.6 has to work better than a 1.28 or 1.06? Especially for bowl wash. For that reason, I've steered clear of the Drake II and any Eco models. I would love the Toto Guinevere- that's my dream toilet! But sadly a skirted one-piece is not in my budget this time. It's good to know you've been selling a lot of Claytons, that gives me some confidence in choosing that one. I know the new lower gpf toilets, even the 1.6, don't have as good a bowl rinse, but I've heard in Totos the water line is so low that mold and hard water lines grow quite easily. Has anyone found this to be true?
  6. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Where are you hearing this crap?!

    The Original Drake has a decent waterspot. The Drake II a little bit less, but it has better bowl wash due to the double-cyclone.

    Most people can't tell the difference between the 1.28 and the 1.6gpf toilets. For example, if I put the original Drake at 1.6 next to the Original Drake at 1.28 side by side, I doubt many could tell me which was which.

    As to MAP ratings, forget about "Premium". It's a marketing thing at the moment, and not a very useful one. As to the regular MAP ratings, which you can look up anywhere, if it's over 500, it's probably fine, although some designs will flush better than others. All your Totos above builder grade (i.e. no cheaper than the Drake) flush magnificently, although there are different flushes.

    One option if you don't like the look of the Original Drake is to look at it with the optional New Tank, which is like $30 more in the street price, which you can look at Terry's prices above to see what's fair. When he gets his new Cart up and running, I think he will have all the options not on there now. Just google CST744EN for the new tank on the elongated bowl. ("N" is for New Tank.) The new tank comes set for 1.28gpf, which should work fine.

    If you want more bowl rinse, consider the Drake II. It's a great toilet. There's no waterline issues with these toilets. If all the folks badmouthing the Drake II were right, then it wouldn't be the most popular toilet of any brand regularly on a big internet retail site, and wouldn't rack up hundreds of great reviews.

    All the toilets I mentioned are within your budget. We have two original Drakes, and love them. We also have a double-cyclone toilet, which is the skirted version of the Ultramax II, called the Carlyle II. We think that that's awesome, although it's pricier.

    If you want a 1-gallon toilet, Toto is also now producing the Ultramax II in a 1G version, although the basic one is still 1.28.

    Also within your budget would be one of the Aquia toilets, which is a dual-flush with great bowl wash (because it's a "washdown" flush, which doesn't have a siphon jet and uses all the water to rush down the sides). It does have a smaller waterspot, because more water is used in the flush, reducing the amount used in refill. But whatever you deposit will get washed free. Terry says that these have an almost-100-percent no-return rate. People install them, love them, and order more.

    So...to review. Original Drake in 1.28gpf with New Tank may appeal to you and is a great-value option, even if it has a little less bowl wash. (I don't notice that; it always comes clean for me, but some people deposit stuff of a different consistency. Every part of the bowl gets water run on it (you can test this with pepper, for example, and I have), but just not as much as the old swimming-pool toilets, and not as much as the Aquia. Also, the Drake II with the double-cyclone is a good value in that it has Sanagloss standard, as well as Universal Height; if either appeals to you, then it's a good deal. (Sanagloss is a special glaze that helps keep it clean, but then you have to tell everyone not to use Comet or the like to clean it.)

    Try looking on Youtube for the different flushes and you may see one that stands out for you.

    Good luck, and come back with any questions!!

    [​IMG]
    Original Drake with New Tank CST744EN
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2014
  7. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Here's a video of the Original Drake flushing paper. Ignore the soundtrack; I had my mic set wrong so it sounds like a jetliner, which it doesn't in real life. For a video showing the water spot size, look at my other video of the toilet on Youtube.

    [video=youtube;rC_TP7mrVW0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC_TP7mrVW0[/video]
  8. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    And here's a bangin' video showing both the water spot size on the Drake II as well as its ability to flush paper...

    [video=youtube;BUB6FuOty0k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUB6FuOty0k[/video]

    If you get bored watching the buildup, the flush comes about 3:20 and there's a nice picture of the water spot after that.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  9. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Location:
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    And here's a video of the Aquia washdown flush (see a little smaller water spot but good bowl wash):

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2014
  10. VADawg

    VADawg New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    VA
    I thought the siphon jet (I'm assuming that's the G-max?) was better than the non-siphon jet? So is there a toilet that has a powerful flush, wash down flush for excellent bowl rinse, and larger water spot? The "washdown" flush, which you said doesn't have a siphon jet, is that better for bowl wash but not as good for flushing? I don't care about the eco or premium ratings, 1.6 gpf is good for me, heck I wish the old water hogs were still available! Thank you for your help!
  11. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    Double Cyclone, which is what you may be calling siphon jet, is two nozzles (instead of many rim holes)
    G-max is 1.6 gpf. E-max is 1.28 gpf.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2014
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    15,295
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The old 3.5 toilets were last sold in 1991.
    Thas was twenty three years ago.

    All toilets in the last 23 years have been 1.6 gallons or less.
    All 1.6 gallon bowls use less water than the old 2.5 and 5.0 bowls.
    They do fush better, but may require more cleaning than before. With the savings on your water bill, you can take that money to the bank, and still have money left over for maid service.
    Personally, I like to keep mine clean myself.

    With most any of these, you can hold the handle down and use the entire tank for the flush. That gives you almost 3.0 gallons.

    I have the Drake II in one home, and it's like spotless. It flushes well and stays very clean.
  13. VADawg

    VADawg New Member

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    10
    Location:
    VA
    Ok so what is the difference between Gmax flushing system and Double Cyclone? And which is better at which? Thank you all for your help!!
  14. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    It hardly matters. The double cyclone all come "with" Sanagloss.
    I give the edge to the II series.
  15. VADawg

    VADawg New Member

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    10
    Location:
    VA
    So between the Drake II with new transitional tank and Clayton, which would you choose for bowl rinse and flushing? I think the Clayton costs more, what am I getting for my extra money with the Clayton?
  16. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Style

    It takes more time to make that one.
    It's like art. You start with a canvas, add paint, and then charge for the artist's ability.
  17. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Whoa, there!

    The new Transitional tank is for the Original Drake, CST744EN with the new tank.

    NOT the Drake II. CST454CEFG.

    The Original Drake has the EMax flush with that tank. Just like the Original Drake in the video.

    When I referred to siphon jet, I meant the hole in the bottom of the tank that pushes waste forward. There is one in the Drake (and all GMax and Emax toilets) as well as in the Drake II (and all double-cyclone bowls). Just not in the washdown flush of the Aquia.

    Ultimately, there are differences and little tradeoffs in all the designs and flushes. In the Toto line, they all work. If you want a bigger water spot, you get either the Drake (or a Gmax like the Clayton) or the Drake II (or any other Double Cyclone toilet). However, there is no "right" answer or no "best" among these options. Pick one that you like the looks of, and you're bound to be happy with it. We have one Double Cyclone and love it, and two Drakes and love them. The Double Cyclone is in the master bath (Carlyle II), and is the perfect look for there. The Drakes are in smaller, older baths, and look appropriate there. And all we and our guests do is comment on how well all of them work every time we use them...

    I do the same thing that you're doing, except I do it about stuff like tires. There are two tire types of a particular brand that are a cut above the rest for my car. One is a little stiffer ride, and excels in wet braking and handling but is very good at dry. One is a little more comfortable a ride, excels in dry handling but is very good in wet. Which one do I want? After doing all the research, I know deep down that either would be better than almost anything else, but it's hard to choose. If only I could predict the future about the conditions on the day that I will really need the car to stay on the road or to execute an emergency stop. But I can't, so it just comes down to a hair's breadth in the decision. Same for you -- they all work very well and lots of people love them. And then let yourself really like the one you pick.
  18. VADawg

    VADawg New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    VA
    Wjcandee, when I plug in CST744EN, all that comes up are Eco Drakes. Are you sure that the new tank is for the old Drake 1.6gpf?? Thanks!
  19. VADawg

    VADawg New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    VA
    I'm all ready to order the Clayton for our master and the Drake with new tank for the other 3 baths but what's coming up is Eco Drake instead of the original Drake 1.6?
  20. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    1,934
    Location:
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    You are correct. The Original Drake comes in 1.6gpf and 1.28gpf. Toto is moving towards the 1.28 because: (1) these 1.28gpf toilets are actually now mandated in certain jursidictions and qualify for a rebate from the government in many others; and (2) most people can't tell the difference between the 1.28 and the 1.6.

    As you have probably divined, the toilets that you are considering are "two-piece" toilets, which consist of a bowl and a tank. When Toto first came out with the Eco Drake 1.28gpf toilet a few years ago, they were selling both the bowl that took 1.6 and then their tweaked bowl that functioned well on 1.28. Similarly, they had a tank that put out 1.28 gpf and one that put out 1.6gpf. It's physically the same china piece, with a fill valve and flush valve in one that is set to 1.28gpf and a fill valve and flush valve in the other that puts out 1.6gpf. In other words, a 1.6 bowl-and-tank and a 1.28 bowl-and-tank. Ultimately, a year or so ago, they ditched the 1.6 bowl and just produce the one that works well on 1.28. So if you want a Drake that puts out 1.6, they sell the CST744S toilet, which is made up of the C744E bowl and the ST743S tank (instead of the old C744S bowl). If you want a 1.28 gpf Drake, they sell the CST744E toilet, which is now made up of the ST743E tank and the very same C744E bowl. (S is for the 1.6gpf flush and the E is for (Eco) the 1.28.)

    So all that is different between the Original Drake and the Original Eco-Drake is that the tank is set to dispense 1.6gpf in the former and 1.28 in the latter.

    When they came out with the new ("N") transitional tank, they didn't bother doing it with 1.6gpf guts. So, it puts out 1.28gpf, which is all the bowl needs. So, yes, you are likely to see it called an "Eco Drake" in many places. CST744EN. See..."E" for 1.28 ("Eco") and "N" for New Tank.

    To ease your mind about your purchase, I will share this secret. It you decide that the 1.28gpf setup isn't a sufficient amount of water, it can be adjusted to 1.6gpf. But I'm here to tell you that you will be unlikely to tell the difference. (The way it is adjusted to 1.6 is to buy the Korky 3060BP flapper, which is adjustable, and set it for the specs of the 744S tank. This involves rotating a little band on it. It's the approved replacement flapper for all Totos with 3" flush valves (in fact, Korky makes fill valves and flappers here in the US that get installed in the US and Mexico Toto factories, so it really is a "factory" part.)) The flapper costs about $12 at Home Depot and can be changed in about 2 minutes by my non-mechanical mother. Alternatively, you can buy the Korky 2021 "Fits Toto" Red flapper at Home Depot for $11, which will have the same effect. So, if you really, really, really want 1.6gpf, you can have it. And even more: I had a relative who was convinced that the thing couldn't possibly work so well without a lot more water in their flush, and I adjusted the flapper to basically drain the tank (most modern toilets only use about half the tank of water, which has the benefit of using the weight of the water to push it out of the tank faster and also keeps the tank from "sweating" by mixing the cold refill water with a half-tank of the room-temperature water that was in the tank before it got flushed). After a few weeks, my relative realized that it worked just as well (and refilled faster) when it was set to despense the designed amount of water. I changed it back and they love it.

    So, the bottom line is that you needn't worry about purchasing the "Eco" N tank, because you can easily turn it into effectively a 1.6gpf dispenser.

    PS If your whole-house renovation is being done in Charlottesville, Virginia Beach, James City or Purcellville, you may qualify for a rebate of up to $100 per toilet if you get the 1.28gpf toilets, which are "Watersense"-certified toilets. http://www.epa.gov/watersense/rebate_finder_saving_money_water.html These programs vary in details (like the number of toilets you can get a rebate on in a given year, the amount of the rebate, the specs of the toilets being replaced, etc.)
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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