total (approximate) 2400ft water line with total (approximate) 400ft elevation change

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by djterm, May 25, 2014.

  1. djterm

    djterm New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Florida
    Hi everyone. This is a real situation with an unimproved parcel of land that I currently have under contract and within the due-diligence period. I believe this is a difficult question. What I am trying to do is determine what it would take to supply the yet-to-be-built 3 bedroom/2 bath home (no additional irrigation or other water uses outside of the home) with adequate water supply. Provided below is all of the pertinent information that is known at this time. Aside note - drilling a well is not entirely feasible. Any and all timely assistance is very much needed and very much appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

    ** all distances and elevations are in feet(ft) **
    ** water main pressure is between 115 and 135psi **
    ** water meter is expected to be a 1" tap 5/8ths 20gpm meter ***
    ** water line is expected to be 1.5" HDPE **

    Following is the segmented distances with associated elevation changes (post-hyphen) which traverse from ORIGIN to DESTINATION (planned home-site) and derived from the GIS (presumed to be accurate):

    0 ORIGIN - water main/water meter location - 1210
    1 500 to bend in road - 1210 to 1280
    2 750 to bend in road (will traverse a couple of very minor bends) - 1280 to 1420
    3 275 to bend in road (will traverse one very minor bend) - 1420 to 1460
    4 300 to bend in road at edge of property (will traverse one minor bend) - 1460 to 1500(1510)

    For 0-4 above:

    Elevation change: 1210 to 1500(1510) = 290(300)
    Water line distance: 1825

    Since current stage is pre-site-development it is very difficult to state with certainty the ultimate route for water line within the property boundaries. Following are two plausible routes which would emanate from number 4 above:

    5 50 to potential pump/housing location - 1500(1510): then 400 to DESTINATION (will traverse a couple of to-be-determined bends) - 1500(1510) to 1620
    6 25 to potential pump/housing location - 1500(1510): then 175 (will traverse a couple of minor bends) - 1500(1510) to 1600: then 250 to DESTINATION (will traverse a couple of to-be-determined bends) - 1600 to
    1620

    For 5 or 6 above:

    Elevation change: 1500(1510) to 1620 = 110(120)
    Water line distance: 450

    For 0-6:

    TOTAL elevation change: 1210 to 1620 = 410
    TOTAL water line distance: 2275

    Since I am unaware of the absolute accuracy of the GIS, if it is at all possible it may be prudent to take the above TOTAL elevation change and TOTAL water line distance and multiply both values by 5% (worst-case) and 10% (not probable worst-worst-case) per below as design/capacity margin as if the system would be required to function at these percentages. For what it is worth I highly doubt that the GIS would be in error by more than a percent or two - however I do not know this for certain.

    5% margin: Total elevation change: 430.5
    5% margin: Total water line distance: 2388.75

    10% margin: Total elevation change: 451
    10% margin: Total water line distance: 2502.5
  2. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,075
    Location:
    Maine
    So what's your question? Are you expecting someone here to engineer your water supply system for free?
  3. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    857
    Location:
    ct
    Tell the water company to go pound sand and drill a well
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,824
    Location:
    New England
    With the available water pressure, it won't make it up the hill without an additional pump. Pressure changes at 0.4335#/ft of elevation change. It will require some considerable pressure and therefore power to make it happen. You might minimize that by putting a large tank up on top of the hill, and if you could put it high enough from the dwelling, may not need a pump to get adequate pressure to the house (sort of like your own water tank). Sized properly, that could allow a pump with a smaller volume capacity, and the additional benefit, if it were large enough, to provide some useful water for fire fighting.
  5. Lone Star Charles

    Lone Star Charles New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Texas
    I would suggest that you may have made some erroneous measurements somewhere. Although you did not say this property is in Florida, your location would indicate that it is. I would be surprised if anyone could find property that is greater than 410' above sea level anywhere in Florida. 410' of rise in 2,275' of distance is very steep, especially for Florida. Since you say that these calculations are necessary in order for you to make a purchase decision, I would highly recommend that you hire a professional engineer to review your plans. It will be a lot cheaper than buying a piece of property that will require a lot of very expensive infrastructure.
  6. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,304
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    # 1-7 do not make a whole lot of sense, but a 400' rise in elevation will requre about 175 psi just to get the water up there without any residual pressure, so you will need at least 225psi at the meter to get a usable pressure at the site. Since you CANNOT 'suck' the water up the hill the pumping device will have to be at the meter's elevation. The size of the pipe will be determined by WHAT you will be using the water for.
  7. Smooky

    Smooky Member

    Messages:
    569
    Location:
    NC
    What are you going to do with the waste water?
  8. djterm

    djterm New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Florida
    Hi, I presume that you are referring to the septic? The property has been perc tested. Thanks.
  9. djterm

    djterm New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Florida
    Sorry. I will try to be more clear with less detail:

    1 Distance and elevation change from water main/water meter location to perceived pump house (housing for pump and/or tank and/or other TBD): 1825ft distance and 300ft elevation change.
    2 Distance and elevation change from peceived pump house to destination (home-site): 450ft distance and 110ft elevation change.
    3 Total distance and total elevation change for 1 and 2: 2275ft distance and 410ft elevation change.

    The property is located in northern South Carolina.

    Questions:
    1 Does it appear that there will be enough water flow/pressure to reach perceived pump house location?
    2 In general can components of perceived pump house be designed such that adequate pressure and flow can reach destination (home-site)?

    I am very much trying to determine whether this is first and foremost feasible.

    Thank you very much in advance.
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,824
    Location:
    New England
    Keep in mind that there will also be pumping losses and flow restrictions. The bigger the pipe, the less restrictions, but there's still resistance to flow. IOW, you will need a big pump, or at least a high head pressure one. A smaller gpm pump with a storage tank up there will likely be cheaper to run than a bigger capacity one. It will be a constant electrical load unless you can get the supplier to carry the burden. May be a good choice for some solar cells.
  11. djterm

    djterm New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Florida
    No. I am merely trying to determine first and foremost whether this is feasible.
  12. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,933
    Location:
    IL
    1. To go up 300 ft requires 130 PSI without even worrying about if there would be enough flow. Since the water main pressure may be as low as 115 PSI, you would have to locate the pump house lower. I don't know how high you could go with the volume you would need, I don't know if 250 feet up would be low enough or not.

    2. This path looks better.

    I am not a pro.
  13. bluebinky

    bluebinky Member

    Messages:
    383
    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA
    Almost 1/2 mile of pipe with pumps and power to them is a lot to worry about. Like others have said, I'd be thinking seriously about a well, or a tanker truck or something...
  14. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Throw enough money at anything and its feasible.
  15. DougB

    DougB Member

    You have a public works project.

    This may be the reason it's not developed. Fraught with problems - location of pumping station (on your land?) , power to station, maintence of pump, what about easements for the line? Then there is the need for a pressurized holding tank at the house - more items to maintain. The pump will need a control circuit to tell it when there is demand. Also no power - no water.

    Even if you were sucessful, I think most people would avoid purchasing the home.

    Forget it!
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  16. bluebinky

    bluebinky Member

    Messages:
    383
    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA
    Maybe.

    Many perfectly good lots don't have municipal water. If a well is feasible and a reliable estimate is available, then consider it. If not, I'd walk away.
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