Toilets with space for an electric baseboard

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Perfectionist, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Hi all,

    We'd love to buy a Toto, but if we do so, we'll probably have to remove our electric baseboard, replace our vanity, replace the floor tiles, etc. On top of hiring an electrician... You know the game: the "domino effect". ;)

    Here are our specs:

    ROUGH-IN: 11.25 inches
    We therefore need a toilet for 12" rough-in with at least 3/4" in the back (the part that would touch the wall). Or a toilet for a 10'' rough-in.

    ELECTRIC BASEBOARD: 3'' deep, 6" tall
    (some are 2'' by 4.50'', but their lenght don't fit between toilet and vanity)
    We need at least 3.00-3.25 inches on top of the 3/4" above, for a total of 3.75-4.00 inches, PLUS enough vertical space...

    Our 3 questions are :

    1) Any feedback on the Crane Economiser?
    It seems to fit the bill and it is on Terry's list.

    [​IMG]
    Toto Dalton
    2) Does the Toto Dalton have this kind of space?
    We'd love a G-max or a Power Gravity, but it won't fit... While the Dalton is on Terry's list despite it is "only" Gravity.

    3) Do you know of any other toilet that would fit and that would be good?
    - Toto Carusoe seems to fit the bill, but I read that it splashes. Is it good despite the fact that it's not on Terry's list?
    - Toto Promenade too, but it might have the same problem (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22272#post22272)
    - Toto Drake, maybe? Too tight, I guess...
    - It doesn't have to be a Toto, any suggestion is welcomed. :)

    We know that we could use something else to heat the bathroom. But it's always more expensive than an electric baseboard. It would be great to save several hundreds of $ if we can find a toilet that fits our current configuration.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2008
  2. where is its positioning, in relation to the toilet ?? Beside it? Or behind it, under the tank?

    david
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2007
  3. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Position of electric baseboard

    Behind the toilet, below the tank.

    I had written "in the back (the part that would touch the wall)", but I forgot to say where it was, horizontally.

    Thanks for asking, geniescience! :eek:
  4. what is the length available ? You said the ones whose shape is 2"x4.5" are only available in a size too long.

    is this wall an outside wall? Is it extremely well insulated? Have you or anyone verified this? Do you have the option to rebuild this little segment of the wall, slightly thinner than before?

    david
  5. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Lenght available: yep, we have verified this, the thing is, the toilet is "in sandwich" between the bathtub and the vanity. Extremely close to both.

    Because of this, if we want to replace the electric baseboard with a wall fan heater, we don't have the 8 inches each side of it for it to function well, between the toilet and the vanity. We don't even have 8 extra inches, imagine 16... :(

    Wall fan heater example: http://www.stelpro.com/en/pdf/RWF_E.pdf

    Smaller electric baseboard: when they're not 6 inches tall, the models with the same strenght as the normal ones have to be longer in order to compensate. We unfortunately don't have this space between the bath and the vanity, below the toilet tank...

    Our current *normal* electric baseboard is actually not strong enough for our bathroom surface. So it would be even worse to replace it with a model that is not 6 inches tall.

    We can live with the current baseboard since this configuration is not forever. One of these days, we'll replace the vanity with a suspended one, and therefore will have enough space for another *normal* electric baseboard, stronger (longer) this time.

    Isolation: no outside wall in the bathroom. But other heating devices are quite far from it. It's in the center of the home, as the kitchen is, and the latter is not heated. So it's a bit cold.

    Thinner wall behind the toilet: That's quite an idea! At first, I thought you meant the whole wall behind the toilet, i.e. from the bottom to the top of wall, like an alcôve for the toilet. Then I realized it could be only for the bottom part. This might work. This might work for a toilet with space below the tank that would not be as deep as 3 inches... So the Toto Dalton might work?

    Other types of heaters

    We could use a convection heater, but we don't have any other bathroom wall available :
    - one is for the bath in its alcôve
    - in front of the alcôve is the door, with no space each side
    - in front of the bath-toilet-vanity wall is a closet hiding the washing machine...

    We could use a heater on the ceiling, but the latter is low (about 7 foot) while we're tall. :eek:

    We could use a heater encastred in the bottom of the vanity, but we want to get rid of the latter at some point.

    We could use an infrared heater part of a new ventilator, which works only when you get out of the bathtub, but as I wrote, this part of the home is a bit cold.

    We could use a heater in the floor, but it's expensive, and we'd have to replace the floor. Most importantly, Fiancé doesn't want this type of heating at all. He doesn't even want to discuss this. ;)

    So that's why we *think* that we have 3 choices, heater-wise :

    1) CHEAPEST (no electrician required, less remodeling) : statu quo, and limit our choices to a toilet with space below the tank
    2) Replace the vanity (and the floor since there is not tiles below the vanity) with a suspended vanity and install a new and longer electric baseboard below the vanity instead of below the toilet thank
    3) MORE EXPENSIVE: pick a wall fan heater instead. It would go below the suspended vanity too.

    In other words, unless we want to spend at least 1200 $ for remodeling in order to buy a toilet with no space below the tank, the reasonable route for us would be to pick a good toilet with such space.

    We might do the esthetic remodelling it in the future (a suspended vanity will make our small bathroom look larger), but since this is our first home, we have to reason ourselves a little bit...

    Thank you very much Geniescience for your questions. Maybe another heater solution exists? Probably! And not too expensive?

    Geniescience, dear members, if you own, or have installed, or have repaired, or have heard about the Crane Economiser, or the Toto Dalton (enough space below the tank?), or any other toilet like them, please let us know about it! :)
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2007
  6. mattbee24

    mattbee24 In the Trades

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Fremont, OH
    Maybe I'm wrong here, but it just doesn't seem like a good idea to have a possible water leaking toilet over an electric baseboard heater.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,994
    Location:
    New England
    Infrared panels can take the place of any available wall space or ceiling. Some of these are hard to tell they are there. Having a heater under the toilet risks cracking it after a few concurrent flushes where it gets filled with really cold water in the winter after sitting there and heating up inbetween uses.

    Have you any room for a towel bar? Considered a heated one? Most don't provide that much heat, but sure makes the toweling off after a bath or shower nicer! Mine only draws 165W, and cycles on and off, so probably doesn't make that much difference in the room temp, but it probably does a little. It probably would stay on longer in a cold room without the insulation of having a towel on it. You could put one on before you go into the shower...
  8. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Heater below tank vs. infrared or towels heater

    Yeah, I agree with you, mattbee24 and jadnashua:

    a heater below a toilet tank is not a great configuration. But then again: it's been there since 20 years...

    BUT THEN AGAIN: That might explain why we have a white tank above a pink bowl!!!

    Oh my God, how could we not realize there was a link here?!! I can't believe this, thank you so much guys!!

    Sometimes, we don't see the obvious. Gee. I feel ashamed...

    THANK YOU SO MUCH GUYS!!

    I think I'll be able to convince Fiancé to do the whole remodel (replace vanity with suspended one, replace heater stupidly placed below toilet tank, replace floor tiles) :p

    Infrared

    Can they be used all the time, like electric basboards? Or are they used only a few minutes at a time, like a ventilator?

    It's nice to feel warm when we get out of the bath or shower, but we'd like to feel warm also for the other uses of the bathroom. :eek: Especially since this room is cold, in our home.

    Towel heater

    Good idea, but no such wall available... Very small bathroom, not much flexibility since it's a condo... :(
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2007
  9. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Other thread about baseboard

    I hadn't noticed this existing thread, since when I started "mine", I didn't know yet the English word for "plinthe électrique". In other words, I had not searched for "baseboard"...

    Here you go: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2405
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,994
    Location:
    New England
    My sister had some infrared panels in a house a long time ago. they really liked them, and unless someone pointed it out to you, you might not notice them. They get attached to a thermostat and turn themselves on and off as needed. You don't need the actual air temperature as high as you might, just like you can feel warm in the sun on a cooler day.
  11. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Infrared heater

    Thanks jadnashua for your quick answer about linking infrared heater to a thermostat!

    Someone we know told us that the infrared lights (not panels) cost a lot and if they are linked to a thermostat, we would have to replace them often.

    We don't know what he meant by "cost a lot" nor by "often". But one thing is for sure, we have ecological tendencies (we don't have a car for instance)... So maybe we have to look into something else...

    But this solution is not putten aside yet, we'll look into ventilators with this type of heating.

    Thanks again!
  12. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Heater choice + tank sweating prevention

    Now we have a new concern: we need to pick the proper toilet and-or the proper heater in order to prevent sweat on the tank.

    We are torn between the Toto Drake and the Toto Ultimate, which costs about the same up here. And the Drake with an lined tank is really more expensive thant the Ultimate.

    Our tank, currently with a baseboard heater right below it, doesn't sweat except in the summer or after a long shower.

    It's probably because our bathroom is quite cold in the winter. ;)

    As for summer, I guess that simple solutions would be to make sure we use the ventilator while we take a shower, and use the air conditioning.

    Now, we have decided to get rid of the electric baseboard which might have caused the tank replacement in the past (no proof of this although).

    Since all our walls are taken (small bathroom), our heater choices seem to be:
    - a very wall fan heater (http://www.stelpro.com/en/pdf/RWF_E.pdf) between the toilet and the vanity
    - infrared heater on the ceiling

    We visited our neighbours on Friday and they had replaced their electric baseboard. with a wall fan heater between their toilet and the vanity.

    The thing is, their toilet sweats. A lot.

    Causes might be multiple, according to posts I've read tonight on the forum:

    - the heater is too close to the toilet = condensation
    - the heater is between two objects, so heat stays too close to toilet
    - their tank might use most of its water when the toilet flush
    - they might have taken a shower just before our visit = humidity
    - it's winter
    - the ventilator is not strong enough or not used often enough
    - the flap might need to be adjusted
    - etc.

    Two things I'm sure of:
    - it's not because the tank contains a lot of water, since they have a one-piece American Standard Champion (6 liters)
    - this toilet tank is not lined

    Other possible cause:

    - they close their bathroom door all the time, since they discovered that their wall fan heater was heating the rest of their home.

    They noticed that since they hear their wall fan heater start, while they were used to a silent electric baseboard.

    My guess is that the main culprit is the closed door thing, keeping this room too humid.

    But the position of the wall fan heater and the fact that the toilet is not lined might add up to the problem.

    What do you think?

    Maybe I should start a new thread... Sigh.

    Thanks!
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2007
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,994
    Location:
    New England
    It is especially important to have a good exhaust fan in the summer when it is humid. Ideally, it is on a timer so when you turn it on, it runs long enough. In fact, they may a control that will cause it to run until the humidity decreases to the set point. Hot air can contain more moisture - when you cool it off, it will condense on the coldest surfaces first. If I take a long shower in the winter, I can get a little condensation on the mirror, but not if I run the exhaust fan. In the summer, I usually have the a/c on, and always run the fan when showering (I often don't in the winter, since I feel it normally needs humidification anyways). So, unless you've flushed the toilet recently, it is probably at room temperature, so you won't get any more condensation on it than you would on any other surface in the room. So, if you don't have one, put in an exhaust fan, vent it either out the roof or the sidewall and NOT into the attic. Use it, then see if you still have a problem. If it is really a very humid room, and you can't vent it properly, you could put a tempering valve on the water which would make it warm, preventing it from being below the dew point and therefore dry.
  14. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Exhaust fan, wall fan heater position

    Thanks jadnashua!

    EXHAUST FAN

    We will test our current exhaust fan (which I mistakenly named "ventilator" in my previous posts) and will determine if it's strong enough for our bathroom size.

    If it fails, we might replace it with a exhaust fan and light combo, or a exhaust fan and infrared heater combo. :)

    WALL FAN HEATER

    Now we have to pick our heating device.

    Thanks to Geniescience, who guided me with several pertinent questions, I noticed that our current bathroom heater is heating the rest of our home, not the other way around.

    So besides correcting the situation outside the bathroom, in the meantime (i.e. upcoming remodelling) we should have a constant source of heating in the bathroom.

    The simple route would be to use a wall fan heater, since we'd rather not use infrared for constant heating.

    WALL FAN HEATER POSITION

    Our last worry is about the position of the wall fan heater. No wall is available, except a very small zone between the toilet and the vanity. We worry because this is the configuration that our neighboors have and their toilet sweats a lot.

    I wonder what is the main culprit of my neighboors' toilet sweating:

    - wall fan heater close to toilet tank
    - heat not circulating well because heater between toilet and vanity
    - unlined tank
    - too much humidity since they keep their bathroom closed at all times

    I suspect it's the last point, but we could pick a lined tank toilet for prevention. :)

    Do you, jadnashua and members, think that the wall fan heater position at our neighboors is causing sweating, or if the main culprit is the closed door?
  15. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Why talk about heating in this toilet thread

    Should I "close" this thread since it's no longer about looking for a toilet that can accomodate an electric baseboard below its tank?

    I've been suggested to open a new thread re our bathroom heating problem, and this suggestion makes a lot of sense.

    On the other hand, I thought of "staying" in this thread since a good percentage of people with the same question about toilets might also have a small bathroom with no available wall for the heater...
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,994
    Location:
    New England
    Keep the thread going would be my choice...

    Unless the wall heater is a combustion device and not vented properly, it would be causing the relative humidity to DECREASE, not increase since hot air can hold more moisture than cold air can.

    For condensation to occur, the item must be below the dew point. That changes with the total moisture in the air (not relative humidity). When the relative humidity reaches 100%, you can't add any water to the air, and it condenses. On a toilet, once the thing is flushed and the water warms to room temperature, unless it is condensing on the entire room, it is no longer cold enough. A problem many people have is that the flapper valve leaks a little causing a periodic refill which keeps the toilet cold. Try some food coloring in the tank. Let it sit for awhile or overnight. Check both the tank and the bowl for color after the delay. If you only have color in the tank, the flapper is good. If you have some in the bowl, or none left anywhere, replace the flapper valve since it leaked so much it flushed all of the food colored water away. This is a much more common problem than most people realize and wastes a huge amount of water nationally.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2007
  17. Perfectionist

    Perfectionist New Member

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Montreal Canada
    Testing the problematic toilet

    Ok jadnashua,

    I'll suggest these tests to our neighboors, since they are the ones with the real toilet sweating problem! ;)

    And many thanks for having tempered my fears about the wall fan heater that will be close to our future toilet (http://www.stelpro.com/en/pdf/RWF_E.pdf). I really appreciate this.

    We'll have to correct the rest of our home's heaters, and Geniescience is already helping a lot on this aspect.

    Thanks to you all!
  18. your inbox/outbox is at total PM max quota. Delete some.

    hi again

    Ceramic / porcelain has properties related to heat storage and heat conduction that are extreme, compared other materials.

    A tiled space may feel cold when it isn't colder in real degrees than the wood and plaster in the rest of the house.

    Several more participants have already shown an interest in discussing how heat flows through structure & space, and how to arrange for heat to flow better to suit occupants' needs.

    david
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