toilets, toilets everywhere

[Mad Plumber]

I am trying to be an informed consumer. I have read the specifications for various toilets. I have gone to the local home depot and Lowe's. I see 1.28 and 1.6 and dual flushes. I have tried to follow the various threads on toilets.

I finally separated the many toilets, all called cimarron and I believe I read champion 4, instead of cadet 3.

Ok, so a Glacier Bay Dual Flush, a Champion 4 or a Cimarron class 6 toilet, how do I compare? Which is the better toilet? Which is the better buy?

I need a toilet. Yes, this will be the main, of 2 toilets, in the house.
Fran

 

[Terry]

Pretty poor lot of toilets to choose from.
I wouldn't recommend any of them.

If you are going to a home center, maybe the Cadet 3
Flappers go bad, but you can get a Korky replacement flapper for it.

The Champion is too heavy for a home owner to install.
And it has quality issues.

The Cimarron has a poor trapway design, the Cadet 3 has a better one.
Quality control is not a bragging point for Kohler either.

The Glacier Bay?
Who is manufacturing this container load?
Without seeing what product that Home Depot has stamped their name on, I couldn't comment.
Parts? Oh that's right.
Home Depot doesn't carry parts for these.

Low end stuff.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[FloridaOrange]

The Champion is too heavy for a home owner to install.
And it has quality issues.

While it is heavy, the one I installed last weekend looks very good. The flush and bowl wash is pretty impressive. I did agree that it is heavy, right?

 

[Terry]

Florida,
I'm surprised you went with the Champion.
There are so many better toilets out there.

Wow!

 

[fran55]

toilets, toilets

Thanks Terry,
The Champion 4 class six and the complete solution cimarron were Consumer Reports #1 ad #2. From reading the post I chose champion over cadet for main bathroom use.

If the cadet which one, so many numbers. CR list 4 with 4 different model numbers.

What does a better job than these? Where do you suggest I make my purchase? I am just outside of Phila. and most of the neighborhood plumbing supplies stores are long gone.

 

[FloridaOrange]

Florida,
I'm surprised you went with the Champion.
There are so many better toilets out there.

Wow!

Terry,
I had AS contractor's grade toilets in my house - needless to say, not too good. The AS rep gave me the toilet for free so it was a no brainer.

In 10 years plus, I've only seen a Toto rep once (they gave me a coffee cup I still use today) - the AS rep gave me the toilet because I was telling him that I couldn't wait until I had a good excuse to remove the AS and install a Toto. The ones that were in my house almost always required 2 flushes.


Fran,
Had I bought the toilet I had I would've gotten a Toto.

 

[Terry]

Fran,
Check out this link on past Consumer Reports failures.

Consumer Reports and their failure at picking good toilets.

 

[Silverghost]

Kohler Santa Rosa K-3323-0

Hi Terry,

From a report in 2004, you understandably didn't give a good report for the Santa Rosa, demonstrating that the passage way was too restricted with sharp turns. A new schematic from Kohler seems to show a different pattern. Have you made review of this toilet since? Also, is the Ingenium flushing system a new item compared to the 2004 review, as well?

I appreciate your site and the good information that you make available.

Thank you,
Rev. Silver

 

[Terry]

Ingenium flushing system came out in 1998.
It was a new name for old technology.

It means the same old 2" flapper and flush valve we have been seeing for 100 years.

The trapway on the Kohler toilets have a sharp bend where it leaves and enters the flange.
I haven't seen anything new in that regard.

Although we sell all brands, we do seem to be removing a lions share of the Koher one-piece toilets.
A lot is learned by looking at what we are throwing away.

Kohler Santa Rosa with Ingenium Flush

Inside the Santa Rosa tank with Ingenium Flush, Fluidmaster and 2" flush valve.

 

[fran55]

Terry,
I see. I don't follow CR for everything either. I googled Toto and found a couple of stores, in my area, who carry them. I am going to see what Toto toilets they have. Can you tell me more about this line?
Fran55

 

[Terry]

Toto Drake

Toto Ultramax

Biggest plumbing manufacturer in the world and the oldest.

 

[Silverghost]

New Specs?

Ingenium flushing system came out in 1998.
It was a new name for old technology.

It means the same old 2" flapper and flush valve we have been seeing for 100 years.

Thank you for this clarification. The 3" GMax valve sounds much more substantial.

The trapway on the Kohler toilets have a sharp bend where it leaves and enters the flange.
I haven't seen anything new in that regard.

As I view the photo in your reply, it is not the same bends that are depicted in Kohler's Santa Rosa #K-3323 spec sheet, which shows much more free flowing bends. It is almost identical to Toto's Ultramax toilet #MS854114S spec sheet from your site, except for the rear sweep before it enters the flange. Toto seems to have a repository section, just before the opening for the flange. Will this not hold a residue of refuse continually? Kohler seems to go right to the flange.

Kohler Cimarron trapway on their Class Six

http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/detail.jsp?prod_num=3323 See Dimensions Spec Sheet.

Toto seems to be somewhat the superior toilet. I appreciate your help, making it easier to make a decision.

Thanks,
Rev. Silver

 

[Terry]

Toto seems to have a repository section, just before the opening for the flange. Will this not hold a residue of refuse continually? Kohler seems to go right to the flange.

That low spot holds a bit of water after the flush, creating better siphon for the next flush.

The second benefit, is that it bends upward and then bends down again, guiding the waste "down" the hole.

I can't tell you how many times I have pulled the Kohler toilets and found things wedged where the outlet was.
The Spec sheet is not like looking at a real toilet.
We sell thousands of toilets a year, and install many of those.
Have I installed the new Kohlers in my home to try out?
Yes.
They plug more often.
And the bowl rinse is not as good.

The Toto trapway does a better job of siphoning and passing objects through

I am a civil engineer (water, sewer, flooding, paving). At my office the landlord recently installed a Toto toilet, and I am effusive about it! I don't know which model it is, but it is amazing, and in inspecting it, I can see it has a double siphon below the bowl. The only thing I can't understand is why there aren't more double siphon toilets around, unless Toto has a patent on the double-siphon concept.

Let me explain briefly why the Toto is so simply amazing. Most toilets have a single siphon below the bowl that gets started when you dump water into the bowl (by flushing it the normal way or with a bucket) and then stops when the siphon gets broken either 1) by running out of water in the bowl and letting some air in the top (making that end-of-flush gurgle) or (and this is the catch) 2) by slowing down to the point that water dribbles away and lets air enter from the sewer and break the siphon. But Toto toilets have a second siphon near the floor that doesn't let the first siphon break until the flush is done and water runs out in the bowl. This forms what Toto calls a Power Gravity Flush. You get the vacuum effect of the entire height from the bowl down to the floor pulling the water and solids out of the bowl. Very ingenious. I've sketched it below.

Tom Haws, P.E.
HUBBARD ENGINEERING
Civil Engineers and Land Surveyors