1. lynnmain25@hotmail.com

    lynnmain25@hotmail.com New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    I'm trying to fix a leaking toilet from the base. The toilet was brand new and installed a couple of months ago by the person who installed my new floor (because of a toilet leak). From past experience (floor was replaced once before) it seemed as if the wax rings were not working so I bought a "Wax Free Toilet Seal." I liked the idea of using this because once attached to the toilet itself the seal had a tube that would extend down into the sewer line. To me there wasn't much of a chance of it leaking at the base. Silly me, because it still is and I don't understand how it could still be leaking. I wanted to replace the flange but was unable to because I could not get the screws out (rusted) not much there to grip. I have looked at the options of how to get a rusted screw out but I'm afraid I would end up making matters worse. Do they make the metal support floor flanges that do not have to be screwed down for support? I don't know what to do and am frustrated. HELP!

    Thank you!
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,809
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
  3. lynnmain25@hotmail.com

    lynnmain25@hotmail.com New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    my local hardward store did not carry this model, it had another type that was hinged but had was held in place with the same screws. I will go to Home Depot tomorrow! Thank you!
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,311
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    toilet

    You are describing a bad TOILET, more than a bad seal.
  5. lynnmain25@hotmail.com

    lynnmain25@hotmail.com New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    it won't work afterall... :(

    I was showing my son the picture and we realized this support flange won't work - our old flange has openings on the side for the bolt to slide into... any other suggestions?
  6. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,809
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The repair ring has slots for the bolt to slide into. What was he looking at?

    If your ring is solid, you don't need a repair ring.
    If your ring has rusted out, then something needs to happen.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2010
  7. Doherty Plumbing

    Doherty Plumbing Journeyman & Gas Fitter

    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    Penticton, BC
    I'm gonna go ahead and guess that you have a toilet with a crack in it that's leaking the water. Not the seal at the base.
  8. lynnmain25@hotmail.com

    lynnmain25@hotmail.com New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    the slots for the bolt are from the side of a plastic flange, they cannot drop in from the top and then slide back. Although the more I think about it I can slide in both bolts and then place the new flange on top, etc.

    I was beginning to think that I have a crack somewhere in my toilet too... I'll try buying the new support flange and price new toilets at the same time.... A shame this low flow toilet has done a great job flushing! oh well... just need to figure this out!

    Thank you everyone for your ideas, it is truly appreciated :)
  9. CSP

    CSP In the Trades

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Michigan
    It is possible that there is a small crack like someone above mentioned. If you cannot figure it out on your own, our business is located in Michigan. Hopefully you can get it on your own though.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2010
  10. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,311
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    IF it was brand new a couple of months ago, and has leaked since it was installed, then it is a factory defect and should be returnable. I had one recently where the bowl was defective, but the defect did not make its presence known for two years, and then I returned it.
  11. lynnmain25@hotmail.com

    lynnmain25@hotmail.com New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    Well nothing has worked. I was able to finally find the steel cover to go over the flange on the floor. Home Depot, ******* and Lowes did not have this particular flange, employees didn't have a clue. Went to several smaller hardware stores without any luck. Finally found a mom and pop hardware store and they did not carry it, but the man said there was only one place that he knew of that might carry what I'm looking for.... I found the place, walked in, explained to the man, he reached behind me and grabbed one hanging and I was out of the store in 3 minutes! From looking at the picture of the flange replacement from the above thread it looks like it is resting directly on the floor. Is that true? The original flange is above the floor and the new flange is, of course, even higher off the floor, is this my problem? The wax free toilet seal allowed the toilet to sit solidly on the floor without any rocking, I was impressed at how solidly the toilet sat on the floor but it leaked. The wax seal seems to have the toilet up off the floor without any hope of ever reaching the floor (too big of a gap). Oh, I did buy a new toilet in case the other one was defective. Any more advice? Thank you!
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,809
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    If you use the Fluidmaster waxless, pull the bowl and "push" the adapter onto the bowl first.
    Then lower the bowl into the drain.

    If you use wax, get one without the horn. Sometimes the horn will prevent the bowl from reaching the floor.
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,830
    Location:
    New England
    Toilet flanges and toilets are designed to work together when the flange is sitting flush on top of the finished floor. If the flange is not sitting on top of the floor (has a gap under it), first, it isn't going to provide great support for the toilet anchor bolts and two, the toilet may not fit and will rock.
  14. lynnmain25@hotmail.com

    lynnmain25@hotmail.com New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    I believe I have finally solved my toilet problem (I hope). The fluidmaster could not fit into the drain hole. The small ring was too small and was extremly loose in the drain pipe and the big ring was too big. I tried soaping everything up to get the large ring to roll down as I pushed evenly down (using a piece of pine board). While I was buying the fluidmaster (at the only store in the area that carried it - a big box store) an employee approached me to ask if he could help. I explained my story to him about my flange being so high off the floor and everything I had tried up to that point. He was very patient while listening to me :) He said that a couple of years ago he was working for someone who had the same problem as me. He ended up cutting out of plywood (I used 1/2 inch plywood) a base for the toilet to sit upon and has used this same solution several times since without any problems. So I did the same thing... The toilet, when testing using the plywood base, seemed to sit flat on the floor, very little rocking. We are in the middle of a heat wave so I put the wax rings outside to make sure they were softened and ready to mold between my toilet and flange. I started with only 1 wax ring... was not impressed that it had made contact. Took the toilet off to see and sure enough it had not made enough contact to make a secure seal. Added a second wax ring and boy did it feel like there was contact AND sitting firmly, NO ROCKING. We tightened the bolts, put the rest of the toilet together and viola - no apparent leaks. I finally feel like I may have solved my problem... I wish I had gotten the name of the man in the big box store to thank. And thank you to you Terry, and the rest of the people who replied - you all helped me better understand my toilet issues :)
  15. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,311
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Are you saying you have the toilet installed on top of a piece of 3/4" plywood? Wax rings do NOT have to be put outdoors before using them, in fact, sometimes I put them inside the customer's freezer until I am ready to use them. The rest if the description implies that the flange was below the floor level, which is why you needed two wax rings, but if you did NOT use the "right" wax rings in the proper order, you could still have a problem, but maybe not the same one you started with.
  16. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,453
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Wow...

    This is probably going to be pretty ugly before you finally fix it right....
  17. lynnmain25@hotmail.com

    lynnmain25@hotmail.com New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    No, my flange sits above the floor by almost 1/2 inch. Prior to using my piece of plywood for a base every item I used, except for one, a waxless seal, all had my toilet rocking back and forth and leaking immediately. Previous plumbers over the years used shims to try to level it, but didn't work, and started leaking. I did not use 3/4 inch plywood, I stated 1/2 inch plywood in my posting. As far as the placement/order of wax rings, I used the one with the black base attached to it (the directions show you this) and put it directly on top of the opening of the floor flange and then put the other wax ring (without the black base) one on top of it. The directions on the box say to use the wax rings only when temperatures are above 70 degrees. My bathroom temperature is about 65 degrees. I have lived in this house for 20 years and have allowed "knowledgeable" people use the same repair job on the toilet and have always had leaks. My ex replaced the floor twice. I just had the floor replaced a third time. Nothing in fixing problems in this very old house ever has an easy solution. This solution in using the plywood base made sense given everything I have tried in the last two weeks (and have dealt with for 20 years). From everything I've read in these forums toilet flanges are supposed to be even with the floor, mine was not, it was almost a 1/2 inch above. All I did was make the surface the toilet was to sit on (my plywood base) be almost level with the toilet flange...
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