Toilet Gurgles in Apartment Complex

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Plumber1

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I remember the time when one of the contractors got mad at the plumber and put a 2x4 in the sewer and the building backed up all the time. You can't snake that out, but they had to break floor and repair it.
 

scoobydo

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So They came out to look at my toilet. They went downstairs and opened the pipes to my toilet all the way to the huge main line and found no clog or problem at all.
I enclosed pictures of the setup underneath.
The main line (not pictured) looks huge (About 10 inches in diameter) so i assume the clog happened before that.
Like I said he opened up the lines (pictured) at both ends and could actually see no clog. He also opened up the lines at my Toilet & Sink and found nothing?
So why on earth is this toilet gurgling?
Is there another reason for gurgling other than a clog?
 

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Mikey

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Others may know the secret, but it's not terribly obvious to me that there are any vents in that mess of pipes. I'm also not crazy about the circuitous route things take to get to the main drain, especially that 135-degree turn. If you imagine lots of waste from upstairs coming into pic #1's area, it looks like it'd be just as easy to get to your toilet as it is to get to the main drain -- easier, in fact, in spite of the slope. I'd ask them to route your drain directly to the main and isolate your mess of pipes from the upstairs mess of pipes. Finally, when he said he opened up the lines "at both ends", could you maybe show us in the pics exactly where he looked?
 
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scoobydo

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Mikey said:
Others may know the secret, but it's not terribly obvious to me that there are any vents in that mess of pipes. I'm also not crazy about the circuitous route things take to get to the main drain, especially that 135-degree turn. If you imagine lots of waste from upstairs coming into pic #1's area, it looks like it'd be just as easy to get to your toilet as it is to get to the main drain -- easier, in fact, in spite of the slope. I'd ask them to route your drain directly to the main and isolate your mess of pipes from the upstairs mess of pipes. Finally, when he said he opened up the lines "at both ends", could you maybe show us in the pics exactly where he looked?

In this picture I indicated with red lines, the sections he took off to look.
5 sections in all.
You mentioned vents? It should have them or it shouldn't?
 

Mikey

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I don't think he went far enough -- he stopped right at that hard turn I didn't like. Everything needs to be vented. Since I'm just an amateur plumber, however, I'm going to bow out here and let the pros have a crack at it.

mike
 

Plumber1

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If your still the low man on the totem pole, has any one opened up the main drain, or building sewer?
 

scoobydo

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plumber1 said:
If your still the low man on the totem pole, has any one opened up the main drain, or building sewer?
Thats what I don't understand. The Main drain is huge and is connected to all 6 apartments on my side of the building. I am the only one who had a sewage backup. If the stoppage was in the main drain, more than just my apartment would have been backed up. A backup would have spread to all the connecting pipes of all the first floor apartments. This is why I think the plug happened before the main drain since I was the only one affected.
 

Plumber1

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What did the plumber say about that terrible u-bend where your system connects to the line that goes to the main drain?
 

Mikey

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I'm going to bow back in...

...and suggest that once in a while (I get the impression that this problem only occurs once in a while) a pretty good clog forms at the U-turn that plumber1 and I don't like. When that happens, the pipe backs up slowly as waste accumulates. When the toilets upstair flush, their waste encounters a closed pipe and as they fill up that pipe, the air in the pipe compresses and your toilet gurgles. Once things settle down, your trap drains slightly, lowering the water level. The clog can either clear itself or not -- the more pressure behind it, the more likely it will clear. If it does not, more and more waste will accumulate in the pipe, and will eventually overflow your toilet, which looks to be the lowest-level exit in this system. If this scenario is anywhere near accurate, it implies a lousy or nonexistent vent system, and a real need to straighten out that tangled web of pipe. There may be a Code provision in San Francisco that allows no vents if everything drains into a truly huge main line, but the route all that sewage is taking to get to that huge pipe invites clogs. I can't believe it would pass inspection.
 

Mikey

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I'm honored...

I get the impression the plumber that disassembled things was there when things were working OK. Everything point to clogs that form, screw things up for a while, then clear themselves. Given the number of fixtures and the wild turns, and the likely buildup of cat litter (the new clumping litter looks like a good thing to use to plug holes in leaking dikes), I'm leaning again toward my initial advice...:D .
 

Mike50

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Mikey said:
{.....} and the likely buildup of cat litter (the new clumping litter looks like a good thing to use to plug holes in leaking dikes), I'm leaning again toward my initial advice...:D .

Truth in humor Mikey. Clumping cat litter is Bentonite Clay.
And it is in fact used as a waterproofing sealant. See below:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite

"The property of swelling also makes sodium bentonite useful as a sealant, especially targeted for the sealing of subsurface disposal systems for spent nuclear fuel [1] [2] and for quarantining metal pollutants of groundwater. Similar uses include making slurry walls, waterproofing of below grade walls and forming other impermeable barriers (e.g. to plug old wells or as a liner in the base of landfills to prevent migration of leachate into the soil)."

Especially, If you have an expensive new plumbing system-you would have to be out of your mind to flush this stuff.


Mike
 
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scoobydo

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Mikey said:
...and suggest that once in a while (I get the impression that this problem only occurs once in a while) a pretty good clog forms at the U-turn that plumber1 and I don't like. When that happens, the pipe backs up slowly as waste accumulates. When the toilets upstair flush, their waste encounters a closed pipe and as they fill up that pipe, the air in the pipe compresses and your toilet gurgles. Once things settle down, your trap drains slightly, lowering the water level. The clog can either clear itself or not -- the more pressure behind it, the more likely it will clear. If it does not, more and more waste will accumulate in the pipe, and will eventually overflow your toilet, which looks to be the lowest-level exit in this system. If this scenario is anywhere near accurate, it implies a lousy or nonexistent vent system, and a real need to straighten out that tangled web of pipe. There may be a Code provision in San Francisco that allows no vents if everything drains into a truly huge main line, but the route all that sewage is taking to get to that huge pipe invites clogs. I can't believe it would pass inspection.
It really sounds like you hit the nail on the head. I have not had any gurgling since they came out to open things up. (fingers crossed)
However, it was not once in a while. The thing gurgled at least 2 or 3 times a week for as long as we have lived here, about 2 years.
Who would I contact to check to see if the venting is up to code?
I have looked at those pipes underneath for about a week now and I keep thinking what your saying. Why not take a direct course to the main line? The extra twists and turns will only cause problems.
How big of and undertaking would it be to correct that?
Oh, its San Jose CA not San Francisco. I'm not sure if that matters or not just thought I would mantion it.
 

Mikey

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scoobydo said:
It really sounds like you hit the nail on the head. I have not had any gurgling since they came out to open things up. (fingers crossed)
When they "opened things up", did they actually find any clogs or crud in there that they cleaned out?
scoobydo said:
However, it was not once in a while. The thing gurgled at least 2 or 3 times a week for as long as we have lived here, about 2 years.
I would believe that. With the fall of the upstairs lines and (I'm still assuming) no vents, you might see gurgling with minor clogs which might clear themselves regularly. If they occasionally don't clear themselves, then you'd see backups and overflows.
scoobydo said:
Who would I contact to check to see if the venting is up to code?
I would call the local building department people and ask for an inspector to come out. You might have to pay for this, but on the initial call, tell them the situation, and that the conformance to Code has been questioned, and you'd like an opinion from the horse's mouth.
scoobydo said:
I have looked at those pipes underneath for about a week now and I keep thinking what your saying. Why not take a direct course to the main line? The extra twists and turns will only cause problems.
How big of and undertaking would it be to correct that?
You'd have to get a quote from a plumbing contractor for that. It would depend of whether there's a clear path for the rerouted pipes or not, among other things. I'm a little surprised the plumber that was there didn't comment on crazy routing of your pipes, so maybe there's something I'm leery of that's OK in your area.
scoobydo said:
Oh, its San Jose CA not San Francisco. I'm not sure if that matters or not just thought I would mantion it.
Probably better, in that it's a smaller area and the Building Official might be more inclined to help a resident than in a large city. If you know anyone on the city council or whatever they call it there you might get some leverage through him or her.

Good luck...
 
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