Toilet Flange Rough-in Before Tiling

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by quinocampa, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    I believe the proper way to install the toilet flange is with it resting on the final floor surface. In my case, that would be tile. On much of the bathroom floor, but not directly under the toilet, will also be a layer for radiant heat. I will have a layer of thinset under the toilet to maintain thickness everywhere. Does the flange come with trimmable length so I can dry-fit it, then trim it down and cement it after the floor is finished?
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,133
    Location:
    New England
    Measure the depth of the socket on the flange. If your pipe is sligthly short, it will still seal when you glue things in place. Or, just leave it long and use an internal pipe cutter to cut it to length after you get done. Remember to leave enough room around it for the flange to fit over.
  3. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Fasteners

    I'll soon be ready to install my closet flange. I need to know how to attach it to the following floor sandwich:
    slate tile
    thinset
    Ditra
    thinset
    self-leveling cement
    cement board
    thinset
    2 layers of 3/4" OSB

    Basically, all but the OSB is cement of some kind (except Ditra). I'm guessing I'll have to use a masonry drill bit to drill the holes, correct? What sort of fasteners do I need to use?

    Thanks!
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,133
    Location:
    New England
    You can probably use a glass bit, but a diamond core bit will put less stress on things. Some slate is fairly soft, but a true slate is fairly hard. A glass bit (steel) would work on the softer stuff, but may not on the really hard stuff. If you take some plumber's putty and make a ring, then fill with water, the bit will last longer.

    If you use a SS flathead screw, you could just drill a through hole through the masonary parts, then a smaller pilot hole through the ply, and screw to it. Make sure the hole is large enough for the shank of the screw to go through.
  5. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,358
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    Don't try to dry fit PVC or ABS. These materials do not fit together without the solvent, aka glue. Just measure. If the pieces end up not totally bottoming out, as long as they are close, there will be not problem. I would strive for being within 1/8" or so.
  6. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,815
    Location:
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    flange

    What size pipe and what kind of flange. Typically the flange has a great deal of latitude, depending on how your pipe is installed, and how your flange connects to it.
  7. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Toto Unifit Concerns

    I set my flange last week. It was about 1/8" tilted off the floor, but once I tightened the screws, it rested on the floor without problem. Now, I want a Toto Soiree. I just got off the phone with a rep, and he said it was proper for the flange's TOP surface to be flush with the floor. If the bottom is flush with the floor, it'll tilt back the unifit, he said. This is counter to the prevailing wisdom here on this site, and if it causes problems, I am going to be quite irritated.

    The other issue is a bonehead move of my own. Toto's Unifit drain that couples to the closet flange allegedly requires the closet bolts to be at 3 and 9 o' clock. I was inattentive and cemented my flange so that the bolts' entry slots are nearly at 3 and 9! Therefore, they won't be retained in the T-slot sections at all. I was hoping upon viewing an illustration of the Unifit that the coupling flange could rotate to an ideal orientation. The CSR says no can do, it is all rigid. Ho boy. Anyone else familiar with the Unifits?

    Worst case, I can cut the 3" drain, rotate it to a better orientation, re-cement with a coupling, and drill another 4 holes in my slate tile. By the way, I was successful pre-drilling the slate, and self-leveling cement below it, with a standard drill bit. Anyway, do I have other options here? Was the CSR right -- the Unifit is totally rigid?
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,121
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The closet flange can be above the floor for the Unifit adapter.

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18038&highlight=soiree guinevere

    [​IMG]
    This flange is a little higher then the floor.

    [​IMG]
    Ready to drill the floor and set the Unifit with a wax seal without plastic horn.

    The Unifit is ridgid. You could drill some holes in it if needed though.
    You have more options with the Unifit then you would with a standard toilet.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  9. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Terry,

    I saw that Unifit photo in between your and my posts, on a search. It did occur to me that perhaps I could drill alternate holes through it. If I can do that, man, that is the best solution, even if it is a hack. Thank you also for the rapid reply!
  10. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Caulking the Base

    I am scheduled to take delivery of my Toto Soiree today, and I'm excited. I wrung my hands a good deal between the 1.6 gal still available and the newer 1.28 gal. I got rid of the last toilet due to solid waste stubbornly lingering. I was reassured reading that it still has a "hold down for more" feature.

    Terry says to caulk the base. Why is this? The trap is already sealed from bowl water leakage and drain gases, right?

    Also, I'm installing on a fairly flat floor, but it is slate so I may have to shim a little. What's the recommended shim material?
  11. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,358
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    You rarely have to use that extra water with a Toto. Caulking around the base is done to keep spilled water from getting under the toilet, not to keep water from getting out. Some local codes require the rear of the toilet be left uncaulked so a leaking wax ring can be detected sooner. Other codes caulk the entire base. The shim most recommended are plastic door shims you can get at a building center. Best way to tell if shims are needed is to set the toilet in place without a wax ring then check the base to see if it is level and is resting on the floor with no rocking. Then you can determine if shims are needed and where.
  12. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Possible Switch to 10" Unifit

    In case I have to spring for the 10" unifit, is there any market for reselling or trading the 12"? It would be nice if Toto allowed you to choose when ordering the whole toilet. I'd hate to just throw away the 12".
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,133
    Location:
    New England
    From my experience, you'll just have to throw the 12" one away...seems a waste to me, too, but that's the way it is. Suppose you could recycle the plastic rather than direct to the dump! Not sure of what type it is, though. Should have a number on it.
  14. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Wax Ring Height

    I am hoping to get my toilet installed tonight. I used a single wax ring, the brand in the photo. It is not only wax, but has the rubber gasket too. At finger tight, I get quite an unreasonable height between the unifit and the floor. What's up with this? Am I supposed to really mash down the wax ring, possibly with force via the two screws? Is there some other more appropriate wax ring?

    Attached Files:

  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,133
    Location:
    New England
    First off, don't use that wax ring! The funnel can sometimes collapse and give you grief.

    All you should need is a standard wax ring. The pros prefer a flange with a metal (ss) ring rather than an all plastic one, but the UniFit adds additional screws to hold things down, so you should be okay.

    If it isn't really cold, you should be able to squish the adapter on the flange flat, then snug up the screws. Use your weight and rock it back and forth until it sits flat on the floor. Ensure it can fit flat without the wax. If it can, the distance between the bottom of the Unifit and the top of the flange may not leave all that much room, so it needs to squish a lot.
  16. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Jim,

    Thanks for the reply. It was after 9pm, and I was afraid I wouldn't be able to find a ring tonight. Lowes and HD were closed, but my local super grocery had a plain ring. The toilet is all connected, and I "christened" it within minutes. Wow, so little water. Unbelievable. The first flush was just liquid, so I still have to prove it with solid waste.

    This is a great moment. This was the final step to a finished bathroom after 15 months of hard work, from studs and subfloor to a super bathroom. First time major DIY project and it is super cool. I'd like to thank Purdue University, college of Drew Brees, for giving me a great technical education so that I was brave enough to embark on this folly.

    Wow.
  17. quinocampa

    quinocampa Mechanical engineer in marketing. Uhuh.

    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Toto Soiree Rough In

    These are comments for posterity:

    1. I had about an 11-3/4 rough-in, due to some negligent designing in my brand new bathroom. Nevertheless, I was able to install the Toto Soiree and actually ended up with comfortable clearance between the wall and the tank. I don't know how I ended up with clearance. The Soiree dimensions give 3/4" clearance with an accurate 12" rough-in, so I should've been close to touching. There could be some off-center tolerance for the Unifit that I unknowingly took advantage of when I installed it. Also, my wall is tiled with slate, so it is not flat or truely vertical.

    2. I have been using the Soiree now for about a week. I can't say I've slammed it with the worst range of waste, but it has seen average/typical contents. I thought it could've rinsed better once, but it has evacuated all waste completely and efficiently every time. Honestly, I can't believe it is this effective.

    3. If I replaced the additional 2 toilets in my house with these low-water Toto's, I'd save about $3 a month off the water bill. Doesn't seem like much, and it certainly wouldn't pay for two $600 Soiree's in fewer than 30 years. Better like their toilets for other reasons.
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