Tiny old house, old well with low pressure woes.

[marshallda]

Hello all. I was wondering if anyone could give me any advice or knowledge that might help me with my water problems.

We bought an old house in Michigan, it's pretty small, the previous owners bought it for nothing and flipped it. As a result we have found lots of shortcuts that were taken.

On Christmas morning, we woke up to no water. Later that day we came home and we had water, it would start flowing ok and then the pressure would taper off after five seconds. It's been that way all winter making life pretty difficult. You can only do one thing at a time. No taps will work if the toilet's filling up (slowly I might add), showers are excrutiating, laundry takes forever and after you've used the water it does take time to recover.

Another observation, there isn't a pressure tank in the house. I can only think that due to a lack of space, the previous owners didn't think one was warranted, that can't help matters. I am guessing the well pump is doing all of the work.

So today, it's 60 degrees and I go outside, I look down at the well cap and see Flow Rite Prod 100. (picture attached) There's a cover with one large bolt on it and then the wiring is covered with a cap held on with two screws.

I decided that I wanted to have a look at what is going on under there. So off comes the cap to expose the wiring and then the bolt, the bolt is odd in that it is actually a female, a threaded piece in the well screws into it when you tighten the bolt. After removing the bolt, I tried tapping on the well cap with a hammer and was able to twist the cap, but not remove it.

That's when I started to get scared, with one tap of the hammer I could hear water pouring in the well pretty loudly I might add, there was no water in the house. I did manage to get the bolt back in and as I tightened it, the water slowed, and then stopped, we then had water back in the house.

So my guess is that this bolt connects to a metal pipe with the pitless connector on it, when I took the bolt off the seal broke and the adapter dropped out of alignment the pump's water was pouring back into the well and the water going to the house back tracked back into the well.

So I have a couple of questions:
1) Does anybody have a schematic of what the well looks like with a cap of this nature? I am guessing if I wanted to change the pump the whole cap, pipe and pump come out as one?
2) With the pressure being like this, would simply installing a 26 gallon pressure tank make a difference?
3) The well cap looks old, is it worth replacing the pump, pitless connector and well cap to a newer design?

I really appreciate any help you all can provide, the knowledge on this forum is outstanding.

 

[Reach4]

Where is the pressure switch? You need a pressure tank at the pressure switch, so search around that. Can you tell when the pump runs, and if you can, how long does it run each time?

A clamp-on ammeter is one way to tell if the pump is running if you cannot tell any other way.

Is there maybe a whole-house filter on the incoming water that may have become clogged?

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/flow-rite-products-well-cap.47153/

http://www.watertech-inc.com/download/Chlorination.pdf says

Certain well caps (e.g. Flow Rite, characterized by a bolt in the center of the well cap), when removed, will break the connection of the drop pipe to the pitless adaptor, causing a loss of water pressure​

 

[Sponsor]

 

[marshallda]

Thanks for the response there Reach4, so am I right in thinking that I have a CSV system? It looks as though that system does not rely on a pressure tank? Makes me think that maybe the pump's getting a bit tired, not a brilliant thing if the cap, pipe, connector and pump are one unit...

 

[Reach4]

I suggest a test. Turn off the power to the pump. Turn on a faucet until the water slows a lot. Turn off the faucet. Turn the power to the pump on. Wait 5 minutes. Turn the power to the pump off. Go back to your faucet, and measure the water that comes out into a bucket. How much water did you get that time?

 

[Cacher_Chick]

It would not be common for the well to exist without a pressure tank. Are you sure it is not buried in the crawlspace?

 

[Valveman]

Even a CSV system needs a pressure tank. It doesn't have to be a very big tank, but it still needs one. With a CSV the tank can be so small that it can easily be burried or even hung in the well.

The best way to tell if you have a CSV and a hidden pressure tank is that the pump will run coontinusly while running something small like the kitchen sink. It should even take 20 seconds or so for the pump to shut off after you turn off the faucet.

If the pump cycles on and off while runnig the sink, you don't have a CSV, and if not, you need one.

 

[marshallda]

Thanks for all of the help so far, basically our little house in on a slab so we don't have a crawl space. It seems as though all of the water comes into the bathroom where the water heater is, now I don't know what kind of gap there is between the slab and the floor itself, there could be a baby tank maybe under the floor. If it's well mounted that scares me quite a bit After yesterday's little scare with the connector I am pretty sure I don't want to fiddle too much with it...

 

[Valveman]

You may not want to mess with it, but if you don't figure out why it stopped, the next time it may not come back on. You may still have a tank in the well. You don't need to physically mess with anything, just do a little testing at the faucet. You should be able to get at least a 1/2 gallon out of a faucet before the pump comes on. Then when the pump does come on, it needs to stay and and not cycle on and off while the faucet is running. If the pump cycles on and off while the faucet is running, you don't have a CSV. If the pump comes on the instant you crack the faucet and goes off instantly when the faucet is closed, either you don't have a pressure tank or the tank you have is bad. If this is the case you either need a large pressure tank, or a CSV and a small pressure tank.

 

[marshallda]

Thanks again all for your input, I don't know what happened today but I think we lost the war. The wife couldn't have a shower this morning and when I came home and tried to fill up the sink in the kitchen to do the washing up the stream of water was pathetic, so much that none of the water was hot. I am at a loss, while running the faucet I put my hands on the well (I can feel when the pump runs) nothing, nothing for five minutes. After which the pump turned on for 30 seconds or so then made an abrupt noise and stopped again, hasn't come on since. Even with the power off to the whole house the stream stays the same.

I am totally boggled how primitive I feel (growing up in Europe where we haven't used a well in hundreds of years) feeling pretty low at the moment, sorry. That's got nothing to do with this and isn't particularly helpful.

I appreciate all the help and advice.

 

[Valveman]

I am sorry for your troubles. The one thing I hate about being in the pump business is that all of my customers are mad and out of water before they even call me. Then I have to tell them that the pump coming on for 30 seconds and then going back off like that is the thermal overload in the motor tripping. It resets itself after some time, and tries again. It has probably been doing that for some time. You just didn't notice because you still had a little water in the pressure tank to use, giving some time for the overload to reset itself. Now the motor is toast and it won't restart when the overload tries. So not only are my customers mad that they are out of water, now I have to tell them it is going to take several hundred dollars to fix it, and it will be a few days before I can get to it.

This is just the normal pains of having your own well. But the upside greatly outweighs the downside. The upside is that you have an abundant supply of nice clean water that is completely under your control. No cone can cut you off for not paying the bill or not voting for the right person. And even though a well cost a few thousand dollars and hundreds to repair when needed, it still supplies water at a fraction of the price you would pay for public water. You just have to pay up front for the well, then basically you can use all the water you want for about 7 bucks a month in electricity.

Most well systems are fairly maintenance free. But you do need to educate yourself on a couple of things like making sure you don't let the pump cycle on and off while using water for long periods of time, like with hose irrigation or heat pumps. The only other thing you can do is to check the tank occasionally to make sure it has the proper amount of air charge. If you do these things you should have years of trouble free service.

 

[marshallda]

Thanks valveman, I guess I just needed someone to listen to my woes... hahaha, that helped tremendously. We do have someone coming out on Friday but based on your response, you wouldn't be able to come up from Texas would you?

Despite the fact that this is out of my control, I will be sure to fill everyone in on what the problem is and what fix will take place, the more resources we share the better it will be for the people down the road. Thanks so much again.

 

[Smooky]

Sometimes a house on a slab will have an outside storage room that joins the house but you enter it from the outside. Sometimes those rooms have a pressure tank. I lived in a house like that once.

 

[marshallda]

Thanks for that Smooky, you've just made me think of something. There has to be a tank and it has to be buried. Yesterday with the power off for minutes there wasn't any change in the stream of water, yes it was really poor but it didn't change.

So let's play a game, if I was a pressure tank, where would I hide? I have attached a drawing of the house layout. With someone coming tomorrow I would love to at least track the tank down if anything. Being in Michigan I am not sure how deep it would be. I am sure finding the pipe going into the house would tell me. What methods of tracking down a tank have you all used?

Our house used to be a converted garage and it shows, the water only shares two outer walls as you can see.

 

[Reach4]

Where is the pressure switch? Where is the incoming water pipe?

It is possible the tank could be buried a little to the left of the blue dot.

 

[marshallda]

Thanks for the reply, you are all so quick, it's greatly appreciated.

There isn't a pressure switch in the house and sifting through the forums, the switch has to be close to the tank, making me believe it's buried also.
The incoming water pipe comes out of the floor in the bathroom behind the water heater, all water branches off from that point.

 

[Valveman]

The pressure switch would not be buried. It is probably in the well with an in well pressure tank.

 

[Reach4]

1. How large is your well casing? One way to measure is to measure the circumference with a tape measure.
2. Is the casing PVC or steel?
3. Looking at the yard, is there maybe some settling that you can see?
4. Are there any stickers from well companies around your water heater or elsewhere?
5. Is the wiring from the breaker panel concealed, or can you follow the wires to an extent?
6. Did you tell the well people coming out Friday about the Flow-rite pitless?

These questions may not lead to anything, but could happen.

 

[marshallda]

Valveman and Reach4, come to think of it the ground around the well looks a bit different and there are daffodils starting to appear, I bet I have something similar to the picture I attached. I am going to dig around the well when I get home later.

To answer your questions, it looks as though the casing is about 4" in diameter, the casing is all metal and when peeping through the hole where the wires go, you can see a metal pipe in the middle of the well, I will have to have a look on the water heater but I don't think there are any labels.

With regards to the circuit breaker panel, it's all concealed but there are two linked breakers running at 30amps, I am guessing that these are for the well.

And finally your last question, do you think the Flow-rite pitless will scare them off?

 

[Reach4]

To answer your questions, it looks as though the casing is about 4" in diameter, the casing is all metal

That seems worth measuring. A 4 inch ID casing, which seems most probable at this point, would have an OD of about 4.5 inches.
That system shown in your wellwithtank.jpg seems unlikely but not impossible. Regular pressure tanks are sometimes buried to save indoor space, but still protect from freezing. Those tanks may be buried in sand to make replacement easier.

You might check with the county. They may have some records for you.

And finally your last question, do you think the Flow-rite pitless will scare them off?

It could be they would recognize the system, and would already know what they would be dealing with. It might be they would look that up and then know what to bring. Or they might confer with an experienced colleague as to how to deal with this pitless.

You may get a proposal to replace the pitless and run a new poly line around the house to the water heater area. You may get a proposal to dig a new well. You may get somebody familiar with the system who will know just how to fix things without proposing that you spend thousands of dollars. I just don't know. I am not a pro.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Often one can just imagine a line between where the pipe exists the house and the well head. That will be the path where the pipe and wiring is most likely buried. If the pressure tank is not insside, it is most likely either next to the foundation or next to the well head.