tiling shower floor in seperate sections

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by dedalus, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    If you actually read the Ditra Drain instructions, and know how it works, you'd realize that it is a combined uncoupling layer and a drainage mat. Don't know any drainage mats that are waterproof...it is not a contiguous sheet like the other forms of Ditra. And, counter to previous experience, it is installed with the fleece UP. Banding the seams would be useless. not because of the fleece, but because of the shape of the dimples in the mat not being all the same height, and the fact that some of them have a drainage hole in them to allow moisture to get below it and have a channel to drain from. To make it waterproof, you either need your waterproofing below it or above it, depending on the application.

    IOW, Ditra Drain, as a standalone product, is not, nor never was designed to be or stated that it is waterproof. The ASSEMBLY can be made waterproof, but the fact Ditra Drain is in the assembly, only tells you that you have an uncoupling membrane layer there. If you deem it desirable to have one, it should be considered. It should not be bashed for something it has never been advertised to be.
  2. martinclukey

    martinclukey New Member

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    India
    Thanks for sharing these info ...
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    See Jim I know this. I own Ditra Drain. Bob Weins came to my house and recommended it years ago. Then he told me about Jiffy Seal 140/60 is the real waterproofing product. The stuff - the Jiffy Seal is like peel and stick. Thick - 60 mils.

    Then as Schluter recommends you install this over Jiffy Seal - with non modified thin-set. I fear this bond. Freeze thaw cycles so I aborted the use of both.

    I build my deck outside of local code. Went cowboy. Used Noble Deck - that's 40 mil. Bonded that to cement board - 1/2". Over double 5/8" plywood. Over double 2"x10" 's on 12" centres.

    Now if I remember correctly all the JB members on CT where crying over me telling them that Ditra is not approved for exterior decks. They even banned me and deleted the helpful posts I had showing people how to build a waterproof deck over living space.

    In other words Jim - you are just now learning what I knew almost four years ago. And only now it's becoming public knowledge. How many of the JB members continued to inform people that Ditra was allowed?

    I bet lots....

    Scary the info you find online!
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    22,015
    Location:
    New England
    John sure knows how to twist words.

    Ditra drain, at least in the USA, is fairly new. It is a form of Ditra that does what it says...allows drainage. Therefore, since it has holes in it, it is not waterproof. Ditra is waterproof if you seam it properly, but if you look at the company's recommendations on how to install tile on a deck over a living space, it's a whole lot more involved than just a single layer of material. These recommendations are not new, not something recently discovered, and have been in their installation handbook for years. But, you have to read it and understand it, and then, actually FOLLOW the instructions. Ditra in one form or another can be PART of an exterior deck over living space, but it is not the only thing required.
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC


    The Ditra Cheer


    [​IMG]

    Ditra's Number one Fan - Jadnashua (The Ditra Cheerleader)



    Well Jim pushes Ditra on us. Make sure if you build an exterior deck over living space that Ditra, Troba or Ditra Drain is not in any way waterproofing the structure. Ditra. Troba. And Ditra Drain are all products that do not waterproof any exterior deck.

    These products are designed to work with things like Hot Mop's. Torch On Roofing. Jiffy Seal 140/60....

    The products from Schluter help with the build (if you trust them) but do not make the deck waterproof.


    As Jim points out on a regular basis I was banned from CT (another forum) for sharing this info years ago. Some people online believe what they hear online or read. Call Schluter - ask any rep if you can use Ditra on a deck. They will say yes you can. Then ask can I use it as a primary waterproofing membrane and then get the full story. The wording is key. Can you use Ditra on an exterior deck? Yes - if it's not the primary waterproofing system.

    Three Cheers for Ditra.... Yeah Ditra!!!!
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
    New England
    There's much more to what John is saying than is being said...this is a complex topic and you need the whole story. Ditra can be used as part of an external deck over living space, but you still need to build it properly. Water management is key - it's not only waterproofing, it's directing that water properly. A sheet membrane like Ditra is primarily an uncoupling membrane that, under some circumstances can become a primary waterproofing layer. The important thing in that sentence is "under some circumstances CAN become the primary waterproofing layer". That also means that it cannot always be.

    As to Ditra Drain, it cannot become a waterproof membrane without fully covering it since it has holes in it to aid drainage. A product in the same uncoupling line with a different feature that can be incorporated into the SYSTEM. You may or may not need uncoupling for your tile, but if you do, Ditra, in one or the other, is a good choice. Again, Ditra line of products are primarily UNCOUPLING layers. That some of them can be waterproof is a secondary feature, that may not be sufficient for your application. It will always work as an uncoupling membrane, and those are good for many tiling situations.

    John WHipple has a chip on his shoulder with Schluter, so you have to read between the lines on anything he says about either it, or me. FWIW, you could say the same thing about Laticrete's StradaMat...it has holes in it, too. It is not waterproof, but could be incorporated into a tiled deck, but only provides uncoupling, just like the Ditra line of products.
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Yes it CAN - but not as a PRIMARY WATERPROOFING

    Yes it CAN - but not as a PRIMARY WATERPROOFING. Ditra is not rated as a primary waterproofing for any deck over living space. So you can use Ditra outside your home on your deck over the kids play room. But only after you use a primary waterproofing membrane. These include;

    Jiffy Seal 140/60

    Torch On Roofing

    And many more.

    Jim is saying it can be used above. And that it needs to be build properly. Jim just learned about Ditra Drain last month at his Schluter Training Camp for Salesmen and Installers. His first look at the product. This is an old subject covered to death years ago when I built my exterior deck. The folks at CT so mad at me for telling people Ditra can not be used as a primary waterproofing I got banned from there. A lot of people get mad when you say stuff like this. Many of them are people who can delete info from online forums. Back in the day Jim had his own delete button. He doesn't anymore....

    The key thickness is 60 mil and higher. I choose to work with what I know and used Noble Company's Noble Deck. It's only 40 mil thick so does not qualify on an exterior deck build in Canada. Now that said - there is no inspection for this step in Vancouver. So I went "CowBoy" and used Noble Deck. That was a few years ago. Hundreds of days of rain. Dozens of days of snow. Months of freezing temperatures and my deck is "Awesome"....

    In the US - NobleDeck can be used as a primary waterproofing for a deck over living space (you might check this with Noble in case they have issues in some states) and Ditra might be allowed as well ( I doubt that so check again).
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,015
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, there are FOUR different versions of Ditra. Two of them cannot easily be made waterproof like the others: Ditra Drain (has holes in it for drainage - DUH, it can't be waterproof), and Ditra Heat (which does not have continuous ridges that you can cover with the band material like in Ditra and DitraXL). ALL of them can become waterproof with an additional step and they ALL retain their full function as an uncoupling membrane whether you expect or need waterproofing. Then, there is a big difference between the need or desire to waterproof a free-standing deck or a slab on grade verses any deck construction over living space, and the details are different, as one might expect not only in how, but the accepted practices of different countries. The plumbing and building codes vary across the USA, and certainly do between the USA and Canada.

    So, it is kind of dumb and misleading to say Ditra is not waterproof when actually talking about Ditra Drain - they are four different UNCOUPLING membranes, each serving a different purpose and with different features.

    I do not know when Ditra Drain was introduced in Canada, but in the USA, it was not shown or discussed last year at their training...it was this year, and when asked, I was told it has been a couple of years, but was a slow introduction. That it may have been readily available in Canada previously, doesn't surprise me...Ditra and Kerdi are made in Canada for the US and Canadian market.
  9. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,167
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Jim - Never did I say Ditra was not waterproof. I said it can not be used by itself to waterproof an exterior deck over living space.

    Troba by itself is not approved to waterproof a deck over living space.

    Ditra XL can't be used by itself to waterproof a deck over living space.

    Ditra Drain can not be used by itself to waterproof a deck over living space.

    The proper approach is to use a primary approved waterproofing system that can be used over living space. Something like a torch on or Jiffy Seal 140/60. In Used Noble Company's Noble Deck.
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