tiling shower floor in seperate sections

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by dedalus, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD for both Canada & the US

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    Design Work World Wide: Bathrooms Vancouver Area
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    Australia should know this Katwyk guy


    WHAT !!! They should.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2016
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
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    New England
    One doesn't have to build showers for a living to understand the concepts and procedures to make a reliable shower. FWIW, I have built more than one, and been taught by some of the best professionals out there. That it might take me longer to do than someone who does it every day, should be irrelevant, but some people don't see it that way. My 'mistakes' tend to be cosmetic, not in the waterproofing area.

    In the USA anyways, all you have to do is get a copy of the TCNA handbook, and it shows you the required structure of showers known to work reliably. Even without the skill to necessarily make one, it is obvious when looking at one whether those guidelines have been followed. Things like putting the waterproof membrane on the flat floor is obvious. Putting nails or cbu on top of a curb, are obvious. Not using curb corners on a conventional curb, are obvious. Putting fasteners through the liner below 3" above the top of the curb, are obvious. Not protecting the weep holes to the clamping drain, are obvious. There's lots more of those type of examples. Using nails as tile spacers over a surface waterproofing membrane, are obvious. All of these things happen, and happen way to frequently.

    Personally, I'll take references from the people that do the testing and validation of approved systems over some self-proclaimed expert any day. And, I'll take the word of the manufacturer of the products on how they are best used, as well. The manufacturers have engineers and often, decades of field use on their products to understand how they work with maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions of examples in the field...I'll take that over an one individual's biases and misinformation.

    This being the internet, people have access to all sorts of information, some good, some bad, and some very misguided. My general guideline is: go to the manufacturer or one of the recognized testing agencies to help filter out what is good or bad. Take any one individual's thoughts as just that...everyone has opinions, but that doesn't mean they are based in fact, they may just be a great salesman. It's not about who shouts the loudest.

    The typical DIY'er will probably never reach the speed of a pro when building a shower, but that doesn't mean he cannot build a reliable one or recognize the errors in it's construction. If you want a shower built quickly, hire a pro. But, that doesn't mean it will be built correctly.

    The TCNA did a study and determined that 75% of the tiled showers in operation were not built right...so, there's a lot of people out there that do not know how one should be done. Personally, I'm pretty confident that I can build one properly...might take me awhile, but that's not the issue - knowledge is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  3. ShowerDude

    ShowerDude Showers

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    Apr 7, 2014
    Location:
    Minnesota
    While its clear you are smart Jim you are booksmart . 2 showers and a few pats on the online back and wham a booksmart expert from a desk...you seem to have an agenda. A. Dominate these threads. B. Sell Orange stuff C. Redirect people to an advertising site in texas. Smells like Ego and monetary motivated strategy with a german defense engineers smarts!
    So are we clear on the divot method? And the spot method being absolutely different??? Can you admit your misinformation ? I challenge you sir to post for 1 whole week here on this site with zero sales links to orange products, secondly abstaining from redirecting everybody to that Texas website friend of yours. Simply continue with your daily average of posts without the clear sales and redirect tactics?? Can you do that?
     
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    FWIW, there are far more professional tilers on the site I typically reference than this site ever had and Terry and John both know each other and trust their expertise in their respective fields. That John Whipple landed here is partly because they (and others) didn't want to put up with his recommendations that were counter to the manufacturers' tested and validated installations. That, plus he was just as belligerent and derogatory there as here. If you notice, he's been a little kinder lately. I don't know why, but I can guess. It doesn't help the conversation by name-calling. It would be nice if I got a commission, but that's an unfounded, totally wrong assumption. If you are really being contentious, you'd realize that I have helped people build conventional showers and other things, not sold or available from Schluter. If someone asks my opinion, I'll reference them there, but I also reference them to other manufacturers' websites so that they can get the thing installed properly. Lots of my posts are not in the Shower and Bathroom section. Once you've heard the pros discuss how something should be done, you don't have to be all that smart to give the OP an answer based on numerous previous professional answers to the same question...just how many times do you have to hear how a pro deals with a toilet flange during a remodel to not pass that along. And, being able to do it in a timely manner while most pros are out earning their livings, it helps the OP out right now, not maybe many hours later.

    I have to buy my stuff from the store just like anyone else. I read lots, and am expanding my hands-on experience while learning from the people who make the stuff and am going to a training session from Laticrete in June and maybe others as time and opportunity presents itself. I'll continue to try to get the word from the 'horse's mouth' rather than someone who abuses the materials and does not use them as designed or warranted.

    A divot has several connotations...the hole caused by a golf club, or the chunk of grass it throws up. And, the original reference never said drain.
     
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    And, you'll notice that there are lots of imitators now coming on line...if the stuff didn't work, why would they now start to make the stuff to compete, all without the decades of experience and probably millions of installations over the years.

    If the divot method of installing a drain was so critical, why is it that nearly no manufacturer includes it? BTW, that's why the weep holes are on the bottom of the clamping drain collar, and you are supposed to keep them clear so the moisture can actually weep to them. If you follow the manufacturer's installation instructions, they aren't needed. Now, maybe you can't.

    BTW, my shower construction exceeds two, but that is still irrelevant. I'm not trying to sell my company like John Whipple is. Based on what the moderators say at www.johnbridge.com, you were banned, maybe after they warned you that that sort of behavior (berating, derogatory remarks) was unacceptable - you seem to be an all or nothing type, regardless of the merit of the argument. I believe them. Their stand on the posts was, they show the historic background for their reasoning. I've never said John Whipple doesn't have some good ideas, but he also has some really off the wall ones, that don't follow any of the manufacturers' instructions.

    Personally, I believe the manufacturers', at least those with a long track record and a huge amount of installations to back up that experience and knowledge trumps a single person's. You obviously disagree, talk about ego! Once you have the background of hundreds of thousands of installation and years and years of testing that prove it works as defined by the manufacturer, maybe, but practically, that can never happen. The engineers work their whole life (and there are many of them) coming up with ideas that they know are reliable that are repeatable without numerous extraneous steps advocated by you. You're a great salesman, getting people to pay for the extra steps and added materials that history says are not required. Fine, it probably makes more money for you, but not necessarily on a product that is reliable.

    FWIW, Schluter took several years of evaluation, testing, and engineering to come up with something they felt comfortable putting their name on. After evaluating what was available, they deemed they could provide a better way that solved some questions.

    There's a slim chance regular Ditra could have an issue when used outside, so they worked on it, improving the product, and came out with Ditra Drain. It can be made waterproof, but in itself, is not, but it does drain any moisture that might get below the surface....that's what continued review and feedback showed. Something, a single user is unlikely to ever see. There isn't a similar product out there that is so thin and installs so easily. That's their thing...novel products that may go against what may be 'common' knowledge, but has no basis with new materials and techniques. Keep up your rants and attempts at minimalizing what others are capable of. 99% of what I post is based either on respected pros or the manufacturers' instructions...you cannot say that about yourself.

    And, if you'll notice, most of John Whipple's posts have been removed by him. If he didn't stand by them, why?
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    New England
    While there are some people from out of the USA on this site (yourself included), the majority are from here, and have access to materials sold in the USA...so, why would I care? I've not linked to the Canadian Schluter website, so have no experience comparing techniques on construction. WOrking in Canada, it isn't a surprise that you would know, and you don't know all of the intricacies of the various local codes in the USA (and neither do I). It's hard enough to keep UPC and IPC straight, not counting local amendments. www.johnbridge.com try to strive to give advice that will meet codes anywhere in the USA, as does Terry here.

    Schluter's recommended waterproofing over living space is a lot more than just Ditra. http://www.schluter.com/5228.aspx That some try to do it cheaper by eliminating parts is not Schluter's problem. Their approach is as close to 100% as possible. Now, an exterior SLG, you can take more liberties.

    Maybe Dale felt that so much of the information was bogus, that people following it could be lead astray. I doubt he'd tell me, that's between the two of you. But, maybe you should take that as a sign, what you propose is not in the best interest of the people that use their materials.
     
  7. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Digital Billy

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    Jim, and John, you've both helped me with my project, even though I havent followed all your recommendations to a tee. There's no argument there. I'd buy either of you a drink.

    Jim, I apologize for being an ass/indifferent to you. You put in a lot of effort to help people. There's plenty of people on the internet that deserve a good flaming, and I don't think you're one of them at all.

    John really seems to push the edge. He's looking for results. That's awesome. Thats inspiring. That's life. Rock f'kin on, man.

    From Hatfield/ McCoy, to Barnes/Elias.
     
  8. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

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    Feb 16, 2013
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    master tile and stone installer
    Location:
    Montreal

    Don't worry John . Ditra doesn't stand a chance to be considered as a primary membrane .

    Quote from Ditra literature :

    ''
    When Schlüter®-DITRA is installed in exterior applications, special protective measures may be required; e.g. shielding the installation from direct sunlight.

    The use of rapid setting thin-bed adhesives may be an advantage for certain projects.

    Schlüter®-DITRA should be covered with protective running boards if the transport of material makes it necessary to walk over the matting.''


    Non of the primary membranes need these and over occupied spaces , you definitely need -- by law ( codes ) -- a primary membrane .
     
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Did you bother to read the discussion I linked to? You're stating nothing new. And, there are very different requirements when tiling over living space than a SOG.

    ANd, I think you'd find that every one of the uncoupling mats call for it to be protected prior to tiling. After all, they are only a thin plastic sheet. See what happens to any unprotected decoupling membrane if you drag construction materials over it or say use a wheelbarrow full of materials, or a cart full of say tile or something similar. Just like you should protect your shower pan before it gets tile on it, protect ANY membrane. That Schluter sometimes states the obvious isn't a deficiency...some people just don't have any sense and need to be reminded. Course, that's if they read the instructions in the first place.
     
  10. MikeQ

    MikeQ Member

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    Location:
    Washington
    Wow! John, being from the Great White North and all, well I would expect you would be a better igloo builder! I know American three year olds who are more professional igloo builders.:eek:

    On a more serious note, why do you get so personal when discussing different building methods? You ought to lighten up a bit, smell the roses and have a little fun. Running around in constant attack mode can't be too much fun.

    The "orange stuff" is just fine. If you don't like it, don't use it. Feel free to point out disadvantages you think it has. But running around acting like the "orange stuff" is the devil reincarnate just makes you look silly. Don't think that anyone who sells or distributes the stuff is evil. Last I checked Canada had capitalism too. No big deal. It's a real product with a proven track record. If you find the proper installation too difficult, leave it to others who don't.

    Relax, have a beer, enjoy life.
     
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    I think that John hates the stuff because Schluter informed him the hundreds of thousands of successful installs done per their instructions trumped his use of the product and to stop promoting it 'his' way, verses the vetted, advertised and warranted way. As a result, he tries to discount anyone that mentions the stuff as evil, uninformed idiots.

    While he deleted those posts, many of the installs he pictured were not done per the manufacturer's instructions. And, if you read the fine print, voided the warranty AND in many places, 'should' fail the building inspection (those generally say "installed per the manufacturer's instructions"). I don't think John has ever installed a Kerdi shower based on the manufacturer's instructions for the area where he lives.
     
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    If you actually read the Ditra Drain instructions, and know how it works, you'd realize that it is a combined uncoupling layer and a drainage mat. Don't know any drainage mats that are waterproof...it is not a contiguous sheet like the other forms of Ditra. And, counter to previous experience, it is installed with the fleece UP. Banding the seams would be useless. not because of the fleece, but because of the shape of the dimples in the mat not being all the same height, and the fact that some of them have a drainage hole in them to allow moisture to get below it and have a channel to drain from. To make it waterproof, you either need your waterproofing below it or above it, depending on the application.

    IOW, Ditra Drain, as a standalone product, is not, nor never was designed to be or stated that it is waterproof. The ASSEMBLY can be made waterproof, but the fact Ditra Drain is in the assembly, only tells you that you have an uncoupling membrane layer there. If you deem it desirable to have one, it should be considered. It should not be bashed for something it has never been advertised to be.
     
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    John sure knows how to twist words.

    Ditra drain, at least in the USA, is fairly new. It is a form of Ditra that does what it says...allows drainage. Therefore, since it has holes in it, it is not waterproof. Ditra is waterproof if you seam it properly, but if you look at the company's recommendations on how to install tile on a deck over a living space, it's a whole lot more involved than just a single layer of material. These recommendations are not new, not something recently discovered, and have been in their installation handbook for years. But, you have to read it and understand it, and then, actually FOLLOW the instructions. Ditra in one form or another can be PART of an exterior deck over living space, but it is not the only thing required.
     
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    There's much more to what John is saying than is being said...this is a complex topic and you need the whole story. Ditra can be used as part of an external deck over living space, but you still need to build it properly. Water management is key - it's not only waterproofing, it's directing that water properly. A sheet membrane like Ditra is primarily an uncoupling membrane that, under some circumstances can become a primary waterproofing layer. The important thing in that sentence is "under some circumstances CAN become the primary waterproofing layer". That also means that it cannot always be.

    As to Ditra Drain, it cannot become a waterproof membrane without fully covering it since it has holes in it to aid drainage. A product in the same uncoupling line with a different feature that can be incorporated into the SYSTEM. You may or may not need uncoupling for your tile, but if you do, Ditra, in one or the other, is a good choice. Again, Ditra line of products are primarily UNCOUPLING layers. That some of them can be waterproof is a secondary feature, that may not be sufficient for your application. It will always work as an uncoupling membrane, and those are good for many tiling situations.

    John WHipple has a chip on his shoulder with Schluter, so you have to read between the lines on anything he says about either it, or me. FWIW, you could say the same thing about Laticrete's StradaMat...it has holes in it, too. It is not waterproof, but could be incorporated into a tiled deck, but only provides uncoupling, just like the Ditra line of products.
     
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    FWIW, there are FOUR different versions of Ditra. Two of them cannot easily be made waterproof like the others: Ditra Drain (has holes in it for drainage - DUH, it can't be waterproof), and Ditra Heat (which does not have continuous ridges that you can cover with the band material like in Ditra and DitraXL). ALL of them can become waterproof with an additional step and they ALL retain their full function as an uncoupling membrane whether you expect or need waterproofing. Then, there is a big difference between the need or desire to waterproof a free-standing deck or a slab on grade verses any deck construction over living space, and the details are different, as one might expect not only in how, but the accepted practices of different countries. The plumbing and building codes vary across the USA, and certainly do between the USA and Canada.

    So, it is kind of dumb and misleading to say Ditra is not waterproof when actually talking about Ditra Drain - they are four different UNCOUPLING membranes, each serving a different purpose and with different features.

    I do not know when Ditra Drain was introduced in Canada, but in the USA, it was not shown or discussed last year at their training...it was this year, and when asked, I was told it has been a couple of years, but was a slow introduction. That it may have been readily available in Canada previously, doesn't surprise me...Ditra and Kerdi are made in Canada for the US and Canadian market.
     
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