Tiling over bath tub flange

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by DougB, May 13, 2014.

  1. DougB

    DougB Member

    I posted this on the JB forum. But Mr. Red Sneaker had to respond with his usual drivel. You would think by now he would know that I don't want to hear from him. But apparently he knows no boundaries.

    I'm ready to tile the bottom row of tile for the bath tub. It's a Kohler, acrylic tub, the flange is about 1" high.

    I brought the Hardi Backer board down to within about 3/16" of the flange. Then I caulked the gap with 100% silicone. The Hardi Backer is even (vertically with the flange). Also I'm using Adrex X77, so I don't think that extra inch is going to make a difference - it's 12 x 12 tile.

    Should I use thinset on the flange area? Could there be a possibility of a slight movement between the tub and the wall, that would stress the tile?
  2. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Montreal
    Did you install a 2x4 or similar under the edge of the tub where it meets the wall for support , Doug?

    Are you going to use the 8+9 as the waterproofing membrane ?
  3. DougB

    DougB Member

    I used Hydroban for a membrane. The tub is set in mortar. A 2x4 is not recommended.
  4. eurob

    eurob master tile and stone installer

    Messages:
    606
    Location:
    Montreal
    I know , Just don't send the plumber's police after me . If your base is supported properly , there is really no risk to do it .:D

    But your question was

    What type of movement are you expecting ? On a X,Y,Z axis .

    You can use 2'' minimum mesh ,Hydroban , followed by the fabric and Hydroban -- bridge the flange and hardi together . Don't forget to use the Latasil in between the tub and the tile .

    One more question .....why Ardex X77 with the Hydroban ?
  5. DougB

    DougB Member

    Thanks for your opinion.
  6. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Minnesota
    Doug, in a perfect world you would have shimmed your backerboard out on All of your 3 walls.

    This would have made your backer drop right over the flange lip..

    Options to save the day but not my plan A?

    1.Remove silicone from gap, use a medium bed flexable thinset w/fiber tape to fill said gap , skim smooth,
    Let dry , continue w your hydroban and fleece fabric at change of plane to tub deck. Tile and yes use only silicone at deck.

    The truth is you may be better off leaving silicone in as it is now if its a fully sealed gap and your hardi is at least sticking out proud of the flange so your 12x12 will drop to the deck properly?


    cant see your picture???


    The concern is indeed tub wall movement and the thinset cracking .

    Hence a 2x4 ledger with a healthy dose of silicone is IMO always a good addition to setting a tub in mudbed or foam, i call it smart overbuilding.

    Good luck
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Without a 'ledger' board, the tub is sitting on the floor and the wall tile si above the tub rim, but there is NOTHING to keep the floor and wall for moving in different planes. At least with a ledger board the tub rim HAS to move in unison with any wall movement.
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Does the Hydroban lapp the flange, silicone and wall board?

    The hydrogen should be connecting all the elements together.

    If you have Hydro Ban there then I would just thin-set away..... Keep an expansion gap of a good 1/8" at the bottom.
  9. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
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    He has learned this all on line you know. Self taught master of the tile business and renovation arena. Just a few months ago Jim helped me understand how to go Poo properly in Turkey. The man knows everything - just ask him. If he is late in reply it's just his time lapse while he googles more info and adds it to his answer list cheat sheet.



    Jim's Cheer


    The Man from New Hampshire - he's are man,
    If he can't answer it no one can !!!

    He read Schluter past the test,
    Because of that - he loves them the BEST.

    Yeah Kerdi.


    GOOOOOOO Ditra !!!!




  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Maybe if the misses is pressed up hard against the back wall ----- wink wink nudge nudge.

    Or if you slip and slam your ass into the wall !

    LOL

    My money is on the later ! HA - Kidding.....
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    I guess the projects I've done and the workshops I've taken, the extensive reading I've done on manufacturer's documentation, along with the close to 10-years of listening to pros on how they do things and why, count for nothing...

    If you care, John posted a picture of a sign, showing a pictograph saying do not stand on the rim of the (western style - i.e., what we typically use in the USA) toilet, and I said that was not uncommon in that part of the world...lots of cultures do not sit to poo...they squat, which, when you encounter a western style toilet, might be confusing to some visitors. But, maybe John didn't know that, and had to twist things into ridicule. Having lived in the Middle East, rather than passing through on vacation like he did, one gets to see and understand things maybe a bit more than a tourist. Footprints on the seat are kind of annoying for anyone, local or visitor, when one encounters them on the toilet...sort of like the do not litter signs...a reminder to be a good citizen and think of others...Unlike John, who takes any opportunity to make himself look good and to make others look bad.
  12. DougB

    DougB Member

    The tub is not designed to have the backer board come over the flange. This Kohler acrylic tub is thick, the flange is more than a 1/2" thick, if you run the cement board over the flange, and the tile (which is about 1/2" thick when thinsetted) it will come too far into the tub.

    The tub is designed to sit on the floor, and be screwed to the studs - Kohler recommends setting in mortar - which I did.

    The thing about ledger boards is that how is one going to get then aligned (so the tub is contacting them on all 3 sides) and also have the tub set level on the floor?? Maybe in new construction?

    I'm going to follow John W's advice and put two coats of Hydroban over the silicon seam and on to the flange and tile over that with thinsetting the tile to the flange.

    Thanks for the advice!
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
  13. DougB

    DougB Member

    I remodeled the 2nd bath about 5 years ago - it has a 3' x 5' shower - that's where we have those 'sessions' :)
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    That's it. You go Girlfriend. LOL

    I of course made the assumption when I told you that that you are not setting a 2" sliver cut on the bottom starter course. I would make sure that the bottom tile is at least 6" in height so that you got a good 4"-4.5" of tile affixed to the regular wall.
  15. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    ##$^ing electrcians. Doug - listen up. You must Christen all Showers in your home. It's a code or something. Kind of like why Wolf's pee everywhere in their turf. It's just a Man Code.

    You need to get the Misses in there at least once.

    I have a buddy named Ricco. We never signed off on a toilet install until - well you get the idea.

    All showers need testing. Some testing is just more fun than others!
  16. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Minnesota
    John is your wife holding out on you because of those sausage fingers? All this hot shower talk from you lately!!!!!!
  17. RCraig

    RCraig New Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    This question came up in a very timely manner for me - I have more or less the same question, except that the backer board has not yet been installed. My question: Would it be preferable to install the backer board to come down to the top of the flange? Or, alternately, would it be better to shim things such that the backer board can come down over the flange?
    The flange in my case is similar to DougB's, except that it is 1/4 inch wide.

    Many thanks - the whole reason I am in the mess I am in here has to do with movement. In my case, it was movement in the up-and-down direction (z-axis). It was not noticeable and not even measurable using techniques kindly suggested by this forum. However, it was enough to let water through, right at the position being discussed in this thread.

    Many thanks for any advice that would be useful to me.
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
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    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    RC the industry guidebooks all want the over lap. Yet I have never seen it done.

    I make this call on a job by job basis. Perhaps if you could show me a few pictures with a scrap of cement board held tight to the wall studs we could all get a better idea of what we are up against.

    If you can not post pictures then email them to me and I'll do it for you.
  19. RCraig

    RCraig New Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Ok, thanks so much. I will see if I can get a decent picture tomorrow and upload it.
    From what I can understand, I have a problem from even before putting up the cement board, because the wall studs are not even on the front side. That wall had to be moved over a few inches to fit the new tub in. My impression, now that I am learning a little more, is that the wall studs on the front side of where the tub is are quite gerrymandered.
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Gerrymandered...... WTF - Time to goggle

    OK even with a goggle search I still have no idea what you mean....
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