Tile Tip of the Day - tidbits of info to help hone your skills

[Eurob]

I can add to what John said ^^^^^^^ ........

Size of the tiled area -- bathroom or shower

Size and conditions of the working area -- where cutting , mixing , storage of tools and materials , etc. is done

Level of the tiled area -- condo , top floor -- many stairs and size to maneuver through -- , etc.


Number of the details which come in play - specific design

Let me give you an example of where and how the details make a difference and the work involved is just an approximate guess -- all of the tiles need to be cut -- from simple to a more complex degree --

 

[ShowerDude]

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

Make something like this in a couple of hours using conventional means, I dare you. Probably take 3-4 days, if not more, to get it flat, waterproof and ready to tile. Would it be better, NIMHO, but if you want to pay the labor and materials to do it in 3-4 days or longer, go right ahead. There's a time and place for some of the newer materials, and when used as intended, you can do things you either couldn't using conventional means, or you couldn't do it anywhere near as efficiently.

 

[Vegas_sparky]

Can you build that in a "couple of hours", Jim? You may have seen it done that quickly, but how long will it take a competent DIYer? How does that board flex between the vertical supports? Is it strong enough for a 200# man to stand on, between the verticals, at the tub rim?

 

[Jadnashua]

Can you build that in a "couple of hours", Jim? You may have seen it done that quickly, but how long will it take a competent DIYer? How does that board flex between the vertical supports? Is it strong enough for a 200# man to stand on, between the verticals, at the tub rim?

The stuff cuts easily with a sharp knife, but longer straight cuts are neater if you use something like a tablesaw. A jigsaw also works well and easily for straight or curves. 2" KerdiBoard, supported at the 16" or less spacing as shown easily will hold tile and a person without bending or damaging anything. As long as your thinset isn't greater than about 1/4" or so thick, you can set the vertical supports in it and level things easily to compensate for either slightly inaccurate cuts or a floor slightly out of whack (more than that, and you should level things first as you don't want the thinset to be thick enough where shrinkage becomes an issue, but you could put a taper on the boards, but that would probably end up taking more time than leveling things first). You can build the whole thing with unmodified to hold it together, or you could use beads of KerdiFix (a lot more expensive). In the workshops, we built various things, and yes, it is easy and fast to work with. So, once you've planned things, cutting the pieces doesn't take long, and neither does putting it all together. You can use thinner pieces on the vertical faces, as you would on a wall (nominally, 1/2" works well). They have pre-notched panels designed to bend around any curve...something that would be a major pain with plywood, probably requiring multiple layers of special thin stuff, or you'd have to mud it. That would work fine, but isn't a skill even new 'pros' would be good at, and it would take awhile. Something that certainly would add significantly to both the time, list of materials, and therefore costs. Then, consider that if you did mud things, you'd have to wait, with more downtime before you could start to tile. WIth KerdiBoard, you can normally start tiling once you've got it installed...no waiting at all. Time is money. KerdiBoard is not inexpensive when compared to lumber and ply, but then add in the waterproofing and readying it for tile makes materials similar, then, you have an inert, flat, waterproof assembly to install your tile onto. The base of anything you might build out of wood and ply would never be as stable (KerdiBoard doesn't warp or rot like lumber, especially if it had higher moisture content or funky grain as some of the stuff available has these days).

 

[Eurob]

If you need a strong man for testing -- over 200# -- we are ready to fly to test your builds !!!

Make sure you take your time to build it right ........... we are not easily impressed .

I've seen grout cracking on the KB -- double 2'' sandwich for a partition wall -- .......... don't tell no one 'cause I don't know -- reason -- why it did happen .

 

[Jadnashua]

Unsupported partition walls require the metal channel for reinforcement. If that is omitted, you could have problems. On the tub deck shown, all edges are supported by full height material from the floor to the base. If you don't bond the two sheets together via thinset or KerdiFix, you lose some of the strength because they then can move independently.

I've seen grout crack on wooden partition walls, too. There are right ways and wrong ways to build them. You certainly won't get any racking of the wall if it's made of solid panels, but you need to make sure the bottom, top, and both ends are properly reinforced and anchored.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

....I've seen grout cracking on the KB -- double 2'' sandwich for a partition wall -- .......... don't tell no one 'cause I don't know -- reason -- why it did happen .

Most likely the paper in the Kerdi Board is sucking up moisture Roberto. Did you know that the Kerdi Board needs the paper layer to make it strong?

Installing tile over foam..... Later you see cracks.... No Shocker there.

 

[Eurob]

Most likely the paper in the Kerdi Board is sucking up moisture Roberto. Did you know that the Kerdi Board needs the paper layer to make it strong?

Installing tile over foam..... Later you see cracks.... No Shocker there.

I didn't know that John ..... and the grout cracks where on the same vertical plane . No explanations were given when pointing them .

 

[Jadnashua]

If your KerdiBoard installation is going to be in a wet area, the seams and penetrations must be sealed, just like using a membrane, with Kerdiband. If you install it per the instructions, there are no edges to absorb moisture. The surface doesn't. The foam is also waterproof (same stuff as billions of foam coffee cups, but denser - extruded verses 'blown'). More of John's backyard soak a bare board and see what happens testing and not understanding the product or how it is to be used. BTW, it didn't come apart or warp.

 

[Jadnashua]

Many of the examples they have for a class are on moveable platforms, moved around by forklifts back and forth for storage and back for classes. But, I didn't see where it was stated that it was in a workshop. All subject to twisting and uneven floors that wouldn't exist in a real installations. Any seams, as said, in KerdiBoard should be reinforced by Kerdiband and the edges with KerdiFix or thinset, just like dealing with cbu, otherwise, you can have issues there. If installed properly, there are no edges where moisture can get to, since it won't go through the top. And, the panels are bonded together with either the thinset or KerdiFix, making them essentially one piece.

 

[Vegas_sparky]

Many of the examples they have for a class are on moveable platforms, moved around by forklifts back and forth for storage and back for classes. But, I didn't see where it was stated that it was in a workshop. All subject to twisting and uneven floors that wouldn't exist in a real installations. Any seams, as said, in KerdiBoard should be reinforced by Kerdiband and the edges with KerdiFix or thinset, just like dealing with cbu, otherwise, you can have issues there. If installed properly, there are no edges where moisture can get to, since it won't go through the top. And, the panels are bonded together with either the thinset or KerdiFix, making them essentially one piece.

With all the time measuring and cutting, then assembly and kerdiband, there's no way something like that is getting built in "a couple of hours". The least that is, is an exaggeration.

 

[Jadnashua]

With all the time measuring and cutting, then assembly and kerdiband, there's no way something like that is getting built in "a couple of hours". The least that is, is an exaggeration.

Have you ever touched or worked with KerdiBoard? Maybe the bigger thing is to plan it out so you know what the sizes of each piece should be. That can take longer, but, in this case, you'll have a lot of pieces the same size, so ripping and chopping them to length is really fast. But, once you have that stack of materials, the actual assembly goes very quickly, and the actual cutting of the stuff is a piece of cake. The video showed the vast majority of the pieces already cut, and didn't show assembling all of them, but slapping some thinset on the edges and putting them in place goes really quickly. The video ran a bit over 5-minutes...give each piece maybe 2-3 minutes to butter up, and you'd come to the same total...probably about 2-hours. Your first one, probably longer. But, if you use DitraSet, mixed with the minimum water it allows, you can go up to 3/4", so you could level all but the worst room to get your platform level.

 

[Jadnashua]

??? Your using Kerdi Band? Why?

That stuff is like 4/1000" thick (4mils). Good Luck with that Vegas. I would not use it....

And, that is one reason why I believe that John just doesn't understand! When using Kerdiband, you already have two sheets of normal Kerdi or KerdiBoard butted up, and the Kerdiband is just there to waterproof and help stabilize and reinforce the seam. Why does it need to be super thick? Why is cbu reinforcement tape so thin? Because it can be, and helps prevent major buildups. Now maybe we'll hear that John doesn't use cbu tape and likes something thicker, but millions of installations prove it works if you use it properly. For a company that has been in the business of selling their waterproofing materials over 25-years in the USA, one would think if there were a design fault, it wouldn't still be around, and in the last 2-years or so, so many competitors have come out with similar stuff once their patent ran out.

John has his mind set, and will do things his way, regardless. That's the beauty of our society, we all can express our opinions (but John tries to trash any of mine). I agree with some of John's methods, and don't with others, and believe many of them are vast overkill. Throw in some of his heavy biases, and if you take everything as gospel, you may run into issues, especially as a DIY'er that doesn't know or understand some of the nuances that many pros take for granted...well, until you deal with it, they can be total Greek to a DIY'er, and the skill to perform it may be beyond their capacity.

 

[Eurob]

I would have snapped a picture. Just for fun.

I wasn't thinking it will be important -- future reference -- .......... this was a bathroom with all the counter top and partition wall KB goodies . It was a permanent feature ...... like a '' in use testing area '' . Grout cracking was observed on the partition wall .

I never seen a bathtub deck built with the KB -- just in training class -- , nor I've seen one in use .

I guess we will see more of the foam invasion in the future .

 

[Jadnashua]

I've shown this picture before, but this is me standing on a piece of 2" KerdiBoard that was attached to the walls with KerdiFix the previous afternoon (this was the next morning). KerdiFix cures at about 1/8" per day on average, but has great initial tack strength (cured, about 1400psi). So, this was not fully cured by any means. Nor does it have the required metal trim piece when not supported along that long, free edge. They said on one that they built and tiled, they wondered about overall strength and started to stack bags of mortar on top. No cracks after around 10-bags (I don't remember the exact number - it was actually more). Eventually, adding that extra bag, things started to crack. In the tub deck example shown previously, all of the edges and body are supported by vertical reinforcement, and the metal reinforcement trim would not be needed. Because of the vertical reinforcement, the overall structure is very robust. Similar foam is being used as the fill for approaches to bridges on roadways and as the center fill for bridge supports designed on interstate highways...the stuff works when installed in an intelligent way as designed. Any product that is abused or incorrectly installed, no matter what, can fail, and may do it catastrophically.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

....I never seen a bathtub deck built with the KB -- just in training class -- , nor I've seen one in use . .....

Me neither. Once I saw Kerdi Board on a job. 16" centres. The board flexes so much.

Could you imagine A Kerdi Board tub deck on a new build? It would be trashed by the time the builder got around to the tile stage. After the insulation crew comes in. The vapour barrier. HVAC gets finished. Drywall and tappers..... I think we they tested this stuff in some lab they forgot that tubs need to be installed and have their overflows tested long before the drywall goes in. Nice concept - too bad they didn't make the board any good.

You would need a sign. Please don't walk on this tub deck. It's made of foam. Online I here men that use this stuff need to be careful how they walk on it. Yup that's what you want on a tub deck build. Foam that needs paper for strength... LOL NOT

I came bak after the boarders hung the DensShield to see this.



Men walking all over the place. Cuts on site. Have you ever stepped on the edge of Kerdi Board Roberto? It crushes down. But I'm sure it's faster than this undermount tub build of mine. It might be cheaper. No way it's better....

 

[ShowerDude]

that looks like surgical grade steel ?

hopefully cap'n Hook, that did not puncture the vapourproofing!!!!

surely you would not do that, but could you envision asking a helper to go ahead and clean the grout joint!!!

how would you know???? no help on steam shower bulds!!

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

​

I made a mobile today at work. Hanging various scrap tile from fishing line. The line was tied to some expansion strips at the top of the skylight. The line fell down from the exact corner.

Why did I do this? The fishing line was tied to these Dilex BWA Expansions Strips

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Outside Corner with Multiple Tile Profiles

I have a new client who contacted me privately about tiling the outside edge of his shower. The little wall between the tub and shower. Some background on this client is that he is doing the work himself. He installed a Kerdi Shower Kit and needed help with the tile layout first. We solved those problems but he struggled getting a handle on where to stop the tile on the edge.

When I asked for photos to be sent to me I found that the waterproofing was never returned around the corner - FAIL. This is getting fixed.

When I asked about mitered edges he did not want to do all that work.

I suggested a tile profile edge and send about ten pictures showing the different looks that can be don with them.

after a bunch of back and forth there was still confusion. So I asked for a birds eye drawing which I altered to make it look like a 3d drawings.

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The redline is a tile profile that terminated the tile above the tub and caps it. It runs up the edge of the wall out about 2"-3" from the edge. It runs atop the tile above the vanities counter. That is one series of edging.

The green lines are the next two in the series. Each travel across the curb (hob, dam etc) and then up the wall. Then little tile gets cut to fill in between the two green lines.

This adds a lot to the design. Lots of metal accents. Lots of added cost. but it does clean up the tricky layout issues.

You can see why I choose to miter almost every tile install. This be it hard makes the layout easier for me.

On this job the red lines could be removed if advanced drywall planning was primed and some Bead and Lbead where installed first.

 

[Vegas_sparky]

I think you're trying to add a buffer between the wall/floor transition because the grout lines wouldn't match up(because of the dimensions of full tiles). The border will lessen the visual impact.