Tile & Shower Failures: A closer look a spot setting tile. Why this is a bad idea.

[Eurob]

Roberto - what's your take on those thin tiles? They scare me.

The thin tiles have limitations but I love them . The size is impressive and you need a good upgrade in tools , to handle and cut them . But I will not sell you any tips on the "S" products.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

The thin tiles have limitations but I love them . The size is impressive and you need a good upgrade in tools , to handle and cut them . But I will not sell you any tips on the "S" products.

Roberto did you called from Schluter as well? I notice you are posting "S" Products instead of Schluter's Products. Were you threatened? What happened?

I got called weeks ago - I was never threaten. Just told to be careful with my wording. I learned that Schluter spends millions on product testing and development and that they have law offices in both Canada and the US. But again - I was never threatened at all.

Judging by your posts lately I would only guess you like me got a similar phone call. Can you tell us more.

What the #$#$ is going on.....

 

[Sponsor]

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

The discussion here sure does show the lack of knowledge on the John Bridge forum doesn't. Guys happy to help while promoting Kerdi. But help a guy fix his tile install - now that's hard.

 

[Eurob]

Roberto did you called from Schluter as well? I notice you are posting "S" Products instead of Schluter's Products. Were you threatened? What happened?

I got called weeks ago - I was never threaten. Just told to be careful with my wording. I learned that Schluter spends millions on product testing and development and that they have law offices in both Canada and the US. But again - I was never threatened at all.

Judging by your posts lately I would only guess you like me got a similar phone call. Can you tell us more.

What the #$#$ is going on.....

JW

No John , no phone calls .......who needs experienced installers today .....only '' trained '' -- I am no trainable -- ones make the cut LOL

I do not ask them anything -- bother them with general questions -- , they do not ask me anything -- bother me with phone calls -- .

I just decided to use the short cut version ...........seeing it so many times used by our '' ing.'' .....no more freebies for the word counter.


They were suppose to have advanced classes for tile contractors starting some time ago , but I didn't see any signs of that . Until then , general infos are '' flooding '' the net .

To be fair , I did have the honor to meet one of the Schluter's son , Udo -- very kind to stop by and welcome us --.

A nice written article -- ''S'' products -- if anyone is interested .

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

That makes me feel better.

I thought you got called as well.

What every happened to free speech anyway? Who the #$#$ are these people who call up a little guy in Vancouver and pass on 'Helpful Suggestions" - the more I think about the more pissed I get. Oh Well.

They made a life long friend. Jim too.

I'm helping out a builder in California who is working on seven barrier free showers. The guy has specified 7 AKW Tuff Form pans. He wants to use Ditra outside over the Gypcrete and Kerdi and tie it all into the AKW pans. He told me at first the tech he called said to used "S" products everywhere and then lap over with the Mapegum.

I asked him for this info and he doubled backed and said he tried to get it from "S" but they said they have no experience with AKW and they would offer no warranty (see below). This leads me to think that the first tech call was a local rep, a store sales rep or a rep from AKW.

I emailed "S" and Noble Company yesterday. Asked a few questions about the install. Two of the Noble Techs answered my email questions and surprise surprise no answer from "S"....

Now it's Saturday and "S" is closed till Monday. Such helpful tech support "S" has.....

Email Snip It from the other day....

"I sent a question about using Kerdi with Tuff Form to Schluter and they replied that they had no experience with Tuff Form and there would be no warranty. We may not use any Schluter waterproofing products inside showers. We may use their profiles.

But we have to worry about transition from outside shower to shower." The L Builder

 

[Eurob]

I would not loose any sleep over it , John . Just use the band aid -- Kerdi band -- with the Ardex 8+9


The more you mix manufacturers , the more you look for trouble with warranties .

Mapei has full lines of products to address ALL types of installations involving tiles , stones , waterproofing , etc.....why complicate your life if warranty is important for your builder ?


Tuffform/

 

[Eurob]

What every happened to free speech anyway?

Get the '' Legal Critic '' license , then you can free speech away .

 

[Eurob]

Legal critic license = approved industry critic .


And if your builder likes the ''S'' products , I will send you to Bekotec , mud , Ditra , tiles . Shower with their full kits ......then full '' S '' warranty .

 

[Eurob]

Mapei has full lines of products to address ALL types of installations involving tiles , stones , waterproofing , etc.....why complicate your life if warranty is important for your builder ?


Tuffform/

Why Mapei ? They have answers -- Answers -- and solutions . And the Noble membane will seal the security deal.

 

[ShowerDude]

John, I just bid a project and my competitor had already sold him... on the tuff form pan which i had never heard of! boy did I look stoopid and didnt get that project.

I have not read the literature, nor have i found out how that job came out. So many new products everyday!!!!


Jim you should spend some of your hours researching these products and telling us what you think?? not comparing them to the far superior Orange but subjectively looking at things with an open mind....

Start here with tuffform

-redshoe

 

[Jadnashua]

Jim you should spend some of your hours researching these products and telling us what you think?? not comparing them to the far superior Orange but subjectively looking at things with an open mind....

I am signed up for a course at Laticrete (was originally scheduled for next month but they cancelled that class and are running one for a specific customer (maybe they have a huge project, and wanted to get everyone trained at once?)), so that got rescheduled to October.

I am also going to a Mapei class in August down in FL (not my favorite place to be in August, but hey, it's inside and cool in the class and workshops).

As to one company extending their warranty when you use someone else's products that could impact its performance (especially when they try to mate together - who's to blame if it fails?)...makes perfect sense to me to refuse. Now, if the parts can easily be compartmented, that's a different story (as in no problem using their profiles in the project). But, they call their company Schluter Systems for a reason...the pieces are designed to work together in harmony as a system.

Having lived in Germany for awhile, and owned a couple of German cars, after awhile, it becomes very apparent that their mindset is generally different than the typical one in the states. They highly prize skilled professionals, and are very exacting when they design and build something to make sure it works. Now, you may not agree with their implementation, but that's true with any product. Sometimes, this ends up with something being more complicated than necessary, and trying to solve a problem not all see as a problem (like some of the new cars ability to scan for a suitable parallel parking space while driving down the road, then, once you select one, parking in that space with you hands and foot-free - what ever became of driving skills?!). But, the systems work. They understand the necessity of getting the details worked out, and do it. They can solve some problems, you didn't know you had. But, unlike some who think they must re-engineer things, and do it their way, they work if you follow the instructions, not try to make it do something it was not designed for, and have some reasonable skill in putting it together.

Anyway, while it may not appear that way, I do stay out of some threads, because I have nothing useful to add. If I see something that just doesn't look right, before I say something, I do some research. So, my research tends to be initiated by a claim that doesn't sound right, or does not seem logical, rather than just an arbitrary new product being announced. Just like you wouldn't take your Chevy into a Ford shop and ask them to troubleshoot a dash display panel problem, there's only so much time and exposure you can have. When an opportunity arises, I take it (like the Laticrete and Mapei classes coming up later this year).

 

[Eurob]

Extremely bizarre to have retirees among students in their classes -- Mapei or Laticrete -- .

Let's take a guess ..... Train the instructors in seeing the Orange Halo.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

So odd a retired man goes to training for a trade he has no desire to work in. I can only assume the training is to learn more about the specific products so Jim can shove the orange stuff down peoples throats more.

When I retire I hope to golf. Travel. Go out with my kids and wife.

To spend all day helping online must serve some purpose. paying for travel and lodging to learn more about a business he is to old to work in....

I especially like the way Jim spreads miss information about me on John Bridge's forum. What a douche bag.

Maybe Laticrete cancelled your class or..... maybe just on Jim.... If I worked for any of these manufactures I would ban Jim from attending.

I'm pleased Jim got the bump from Laticrete's course.

Maybe someone emailed Laticrete and let them know what a Douche Bag Kerdi Salesman you are Jim?

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

John, I just bid a project and my competitor had already sold him... on the tuff form pan which i had never heard of! boy did I look stoopid and didnt get that project.

I have not read the literature, nor have i found out how that job came out. So many new products everyday!!!!


Jim you should spend some of your hours researching these products and telling us what you think?? not comparing them to the far superior Orange but subjectively looking at things with an open mind....

Start here with tuffform

-redshoe

I have one here in my Shop Counter Balance.

I tested the Mapegum when I got the kit. Worked great.

Love the drain grate - looks awesome.

Pan is solid - wish it had more slope.

I would personally set in a full sheet pf ply level with joists tops instead of just perimeter blocking.

I would make sure to block the drain as spec'd.

And I'm not to jazzed about the plywood backer board spec. Or the chalking in the screw holes. I think a product like NobleSeal 150 would be better.

Never got a chance to play around with the pan totally.

A friend of mine has done a load of them. On of the owners tragically died last year in a car crash - I just found out last month. Sad. Young guy.

 

[Jadnashua]

It's useful to both know about and understand what is being discussed and to be able to spot inaccuracies in implementation or application when posting here and elsewhere...the vendors understand that. FWIW, Schluter welcomes pros, architects, building managers, store owners, their sales people, etc. in their classes, and others, by exception and approval, since people that actually know their products, giving accurate information, help, not only the pros to use it, but those that sell it and make representations about it.

I don't have a problem recommending other things, but it's best to hear it from the manufacturer, than someone, even if they've been using it for a long time, since they may not be using it to its best advantage or understand the ramifications of why they may not be doing it properly. The people I've seen giving these factory training sessions are good at what they do, and found working a 40-hour week with benefits and retirement has some advantages over continuing to work in the field all of the time. Many of them have been working in the field a long time, and wanted a change.

They do not offer this to anyone off the street, it has to make sense for them to reserve a spot for someone like me...up to this point, I do not think I've disappointed anyone in that respect.

Certainly, my take on something may not match someone who uses the products every day, but I do believe the assessment that 70% of the tiled showers built in the USA are not built properly in one manner or the other. You wouldn't believe the number of people in MA that believe a copper pan, flat on the floor, is the best possible waterproof layer in a shower, or the number of people that don't know how to waterproof a curb and put nails in the thing, or...well, since you seem to do nice work, you probably do know...there are a lot of misconceptions and hacks out there, doing what they think is correct (at least I hope they are not just scamming the people paying) and it is just way wrong.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Why Mapei ? They have answers -- Answers -- and solutions . And the Noble membane will seal the security deal.

I have a hard time paying for Mapei's products. I got in to it with my old Mapei rep here in Vancouver. They lost a linear drain I gave them for testing with Aqua Defence. Then later asked me to produce an receipt for the drain. After I was told they where shipping it back East for testing,

I bet it ended up in someone's home.

That pissed me off. Never felt like that was a class move.

Since then I have quite using liquid membranes and using their setting materials. Well mostly.

 

[Eurob]

I have a hard time paying for Mapei's products. I got in to it with my old Mapei rep here in Vancouver. They lost a linear drain I gave them for testing with Aqua Defence. Then later asked me to produce an receipt for the drain. After I was told they where shipping it back East for testing,

I bet it ended up in someone's home.

That pissed me off. Never felt like that was a class move.

Since then I have quite using liquid membranes and using their setting materials. Well mostly.

Maybe they are still testing it , John . LOL

I know how it feels , but ........why penalize yourself , it is one rep, not the entire Mapei's fault ?

 

[Jadnashua]

So odd a retired man goes to training for a trade he has no desire to work in.

I go to be able to provide a reliable counter-point to people like you. I put thousands of miles on a bike every year to get some exercise, get out and enjoy, plus, do enjoy myself, with things that appeal to me. Never really liked golf, have and will continue to travel around the USA, Canada, and elsewhere. Have lived in five different countries around the world over the years, and visited lots more, with more to come. So, John, you know nothing about me, and yet, you call me names and show utter disrespect. I call them as I see them, and have refrained from issuing personal attacks on character. I reference manufacturer's instructions, that you fail to follow, as a counterpoint. I provide backup information from respected people in the field, and you dismiss them. You misconstrue what I say, pick one point out of context, and harp on that. You maintain your own website, spend a lot of time on this one, and apparently read a bunch others...for someone with a young family, I can think of other things I'd rather do when not out earning money to keep food on the table and the roof over my head. Talk about misplaced priorities!

FWIW, while I may be logged in, that only means my computer is on...not that I'm not doing something else.

That someone can find a subject interesting and spend time on it is no different than someone spending time on the golf course or watching a football game - people do what they enjoy, and everyone is different.

I find the technical aspect of this sort of stuff is interesting and challenging, which maybe a characteristic of having worked in a technical field all of my life. Having spent time fixing radars and missile launchers, plus writing system requirements and test procedures to ensure they work as designed, has honed an understanding of how all of the parts fit together, and what the ramifications are for doing things a certain way. This experience applies to many things in life. You can't make money, even in the defense industry, if you over build things...but, you certainly can't go the opposite way, either. After awhile, you learn when enough is enough, something some people have not appeared to understand. But, there will always b salesman and doom mongers and customers willing and able to spend money for multiple redundancies.

 

[Eurob]

2:20 to 2:25 is the most relevant .

It applies pretty much to everything . If not , why not trust a seasoned tile installer rather than a manufacturer ? You can question him about different products -- prior to hiring him -- , or concerns you may have , but be ready to follow up with questions if needed .

 

[Jadnashua]

If not , why not trust a seasoned tile installer rather than a manufacturer ? You can question him about different products -- prior to hiring him -- , or concerns you may have , but be ready to follow up with questions if needed .

The TCNA, in a report, said 70% of the tiled showers installed in the USA are deficient...seasoned does not always mean right. At the hotel we stayed at for one training session, after 6-months, they tore out all of the tiled showers because they leaked and put in solid surface panels and pans. Most of their tiled areas on the floor have cracked grout, if not tile. All from professionals, or at least people that were paid to install it. There are some true craftsman out there, there are others that are barely okay, and a lot more that really don't have a clue.

Questions are good (as opposed to pointless name calling), and is one major reason why forums like this exist. But, personally, length of time is not always a good indication of doing something either properly or the best way. Nor can you go on the cosmetics of the finished product to evaluate the guts...the knowledge to do one does not necessarily correlate to the other. The real measure, is how do they hold up in the long term...cosmetics are nice, but not essential for proper form. A properly waterproofed shower may look horrible, but perform perfectly. One that looks beautiful may have some major deficiencies and fail. SOmetimes, decisions made don't show up as a failure for a very long time, but they are still failures. Using today's materials and techniques, you should expect to be able to build a shower, or any tiled thing, and have it last until you decide you want to make a change, not because it failed. That can only happen when you are either lucky, or you did it right.