Thoughts On Navien Vs AO Smith Small Tankless Propane Boiler

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Dana

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If you're already springing for the geothermal, why aren't you just running the garage as a separate zone? The heat load of the garage is well under a single-ton of uptick on the geothermal specifications- smaller than the granularity between sizes within a model line. It would add a small amount to the ground heat exchange loop- that's about it. If you're drilling through granite for the geo even a small upsizing can be pretty expensive, but if it's trenched in slinkys or a pond loop it's an inconsequential number.

Also note, iun the main house your heat load numbers might be in within the output range of the Daikin Altherma, air-to-water high-efficiency modulating heat pump system if you're doing radiant or low-temp panel radiators for heating there too, which is usually $20K or less. If your geo proposals are all air-output and your floor plan is fairly open you'd likely be able to heat the place with $7-12K of high-efficiency ductless, 2 or 3 heats. In your climate the seasonal average COP of the -FHxxNA series mini-splits will run about 3.5, which is comparable to "typical" geothermal systems at your groundwater temps when the all-in power consumption of pumps & air handlers are factored in.

I have nothing against geo, but understand that it comes with both higher costs & higher risks. Every geo system is a custom system, and the net efficiency is determined by the quality of the design(er), and it's substantially more expensive per output-BTU than ductless air source solutions. Ductless air source heat pumps have very low design risk- it's apre-engineered "system in a can"- air is air, and behaves the same everywhere, with the primary determinant of performance being the seasonal temperatures. A decade ago ductless systems weren't up to snuff for heating in your climate, but they have made HUGE strides since then. As recently 4-5 years ago the "FExxnA" Mitsubishi were seasonally averaging a COP of about 3.0 in your climate zone, but their direct decendants the "-FHxxNA" deliver more than 20% more heat per kwh. At the difference in upfront cost for say 3 tons of state-of-the art geo delivering a COP of 4 and 3-4 tons of ductless delivering a COP of 3.5+ you can more than make up the annual kwh delta with a slightly larger PV array and still have money to party with.

For verification of efficiency & output performance of the Mitsubishi cold temp ductless systems in a comparably cool climate see the discussion about the Eastern Idaho cluster in Idaho falls in the addendum beginning on page 119 (PDF pagination) of this document, which consisted of ten MSZ-FE12NA units installed & monitored in-situ in occupied houses. The recently released "FH" versions are even considerably more efficient than those (now 5 year old) systems.

The primary down side for ductless is heat distribution to doored off rooms, but if you're putting in U0.20 triple-panes and decently high-R in the main house too that's not much of a problem. A couple years ago I was involved in a deep energy retrofit on 3-story ~3000' house in central MA (outside design temp= +5F), and with ~U0.025 walls (R40-ish whole wall, after thermal bridging) and U0.18 Paradigm double-hungs the individual room loads were low enough that it could be heated with a single ductless head per floor, with at worst a 5F temperature difference @ 0F outdoor temps in the doored off rooms with the doors closed. It would have made it just fine with three 1-tonners, but the owner got nervous (having no experience with high-R houses) and three 1.5 tonners (Mitsubishi MSZ-FE18NA) were installed. Due to the oversizing they're running slightly less efficiently than if the one-ton units had been installed, not that you'd notice in the power billing. With the oversizing that place is good down to about -30F to 35F, even though the units do not have specified output at those temps.

I have also been corresponding with guy in Quebec (who also posts on a few blogs) who is heating his place with three Fujitsu XLTH series mini-splits who sailed through just fine at -32F this winter. The nameplate efficiency of that series is a bit behind the -FH Mitsubishis, but the capacity is clearly there even though the output is only fully specified down to -15F. (These units are good enough to qualify for subsidy across the lake from you in VT.)

This technology has arrived- totally ready for prime time. It's low risk, and dirt-cheap relative to drilled geothermal- pond loops or trenched slinkys can sometimes be competitive if you needed more than 3 heads to heat the place, but sometimes not. Ductless heat pumps have become the most common HVAC solution for "Net Zero Energy" houses and certified PassiveHouse homes in New England, due to the low cost, high efficiency,high reliability, and high comfort due to the modulating output. (They run higher exit-air temp than air-delivery geothermal too.)

Bottom line, whatever you do, make sure you get the heat load calculations dialed & checked three ways- the LAST thing you want to do is buy too MUCH geothermal for your house! If you want to cheap out on the garage radiant as a separate even the smallest electric boiler like say, the EMB-S-1 (1.1kw) would have you covered, and at an up-front cost of well under a grand for the boiler. With no fuel lines or venting to run and a much cheapr boiler it's tiny fraction of the cost of installing a propane boiler. Unless propane prices crash (not too likely, given the trends) the difference in operational cost between condensing propane and an electric boiler would literally never pay off the difference in installed within the lifecycle of the ridiculously oversized propane boiler. If you would go wild with worry that the tiny 1.1kilowatt puppy isn't enough you could bump up to the EMB-S-2 (2.5kw) and be ~3x oversized for the load with a $700 boiler. If you're not going to serve that zone with a heat pump (either geo or ductless), that's a far more appropriate solution than any propane burner.

But if you did a real Manual-J heat load on the "after" picture rather than the down & dirty I=B=R approach I sketched out for you, the load numbers would probably come in even lower. Look up the U-factors on your exact windows & doors (add insulated-glass storm doors if the doors are uninsulated.) There isn't a published U-factor for your wall construction, but it can be calculated pretty easily on first-principles. I rounded up, and used a presumed framing fraction of 25%. But with so few windows & doors the framing-fraction is probably less than 25%, and I probably should have rounded down if accuracy was the goal.
 

CORVAIRWILD

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I looked up the small electric boiler, good idea!

And no idea when and if the geo will be done, but even tho the mini splits may be more efficient, we don't want the air handler(s) hanging from any wall, nor an pump outside. We'll either leave the existing fin-tube baseboard or install under floor PEX w reflectors, and the new extensions will get in floor PEX, heated w the existing oil HW boiler for now. Oh, and the new doors to the former garage, now office will be insulated steel w magnetic seals.

And the house is a 3.5" "log" house, actually amazingly tite for what it is, but we will do a blower door soon I think, just to know. I'll post pix of the construction details, and we're ordering triple pane Marvins today...
 

Dana

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To get sufficiently low water temp requirements for the radiant floor on the main house to run geo efficiently you'd have to go with an above-the subfloor approach- even extruded aluminum heat spreaders for the PEX wouldn't be enough unless you cut your heat load to some ridiculously low number by super-insulating the place. If you go geo it would be a heluva lot cheaper to go with a ducted-air approach to heat distribution.

If you replaced the fin-tube with enough low temp panel radiator you could get there with hydronic output geo though, and it would be a lot cheaper than ripping up and replacing the floors with a WarmBoard(tm) approach to get the water temps into a useful range.

There is really no good substitute for doing a heat load calculation before deciding on the heating sources & distribution type.

If you could tolerate visual aspects of the outdoor compressor unit you don't HAVE to go with the wall-blob coil units on the interior for ductless. There are ceiling cassettes (that look a bit like a furnace or AC duct grille) or mini-duct cassettes that can live at the ceiling at a closet or something with a sub-2' run to a wall grill, etc. Most of those will run slightly behind the wall units on net efficiency, but not enough to care about.

At the past-5 years average for both heating oil & electricity pricing, heating with a single mini-split would literally pay for itself in about 2 heating seasons in your neighborhood on just the operational-cost difference. If you went with a 3-head multi-split it might take as few as 3 or at most 5 heating seasons. With geo it would take over a decade.

3.5" cedar logs even if perfectly tight have a U-factor of about U0.25, (that's an R4-ish average, maybe R5 mid-log depending on species of cedar) unless you have insulated it on either the interior or exterior. The seasonal dimensional changes with temperature and moisture content make them notoriously difficult to air seal for the long term. At a 75F delta-T that's 19 BTU/hr per square foot of wall area.

A triple-pane window with a U-factor of ~0.20 would be WARMER than your walls(!), since it's losing less heat per square foot. There is a small thermal-mass effect you get out of solid wood construction which helps a little.

With 4" of XPS and 1.5" t & g cedar decking on as the cathedralized ceiling, your roof-U-factor is about U0.045 (R22-ish), which loses 3.4 BTU/hr per square foot of ceiling area.

Make yourself a little spread sheet and on a room-by-room basis calculate the rough heat loads of he main house based on exterior-wall/window/ceiling/exterior-door U-factors, then add it all up. I'm guessing the geothermal that would actually support the load would be well north of $30K installed price, even with trenched in slinkys for the earth heat exchange, but with a rough heat load calc you can at least estimate the tonnage requirements. In my neighborhood $30K would buy you at most 2.5-3 tons of geo which would be enough to support the -5F load of a typical current-code-min 1500' house (2x6 R20, with a U-factor of 0.07, R3 attic with a U-factor of 0.028, U0.35 windows, U0.5 doors.) Your wall losses are going to dominate the load numbers, and will come in at ~3x that of the same house built to code-min, even with allowances for thermal mass effects. I'd be surprised if it comes in under 6 tons, even if all your windows are U0.18 triple-panes.

When it's time to re-roof it would be worth doubling the foam thickness, but that's not going to fix the wall losses.
 

CORVAIRWILD

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We def need a roof, and were planning to add a few more inches Styro, and maybe adding a bit to the pitch once it's open for the build up, it's 3.5 in 12.

Poured concrete today, job looks good
 

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Dana

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You might find some of the issues regarding upgrading the efficiency of log homes discussed in this bit o' bloggery useful. I've never used the log sealants discussed at the end of the piece, but the guy recommending them is a building-efficiency pro, and not a shill for the manufacturer.


If you do the bulk of the air-sealing PRIOR to the blower door test you can then find & fix the bits you missed DURING the test.
 
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