Thermostatic mixer/diverter/flow valve.

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by piperca, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. piperca

    piperca New Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    California
    I am installing a fixed shower head and a hand shower unit in my new shower. I know I will need a 3 port diverter to switch between the two. If I use a thermostatic or pressure balance mixer, like the Hansgrohe Axor Carlton, do I need a flow valve, also? I really like the look of these single-handled units!

    Mixer:

    Diverter:

    Flow:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2013
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,817
    Location:
    New England
    Some separate the temperature control from volume control. Assuming this does, then yes, you need a volume control to shut water off.
  3. EuroPlumber

    EuroPlumber In the Trades

    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    North America
    Flow valve for Hansgrohe Axor Carlton

    Hansgrohe offers several solutions to your question.

    The thermostatic valve you want to use mixes the water only, so you need flow control also. For a showerhead and handshower setup you can use the Thermo valve with their Triostop diverter which allows you to control flow, divert to either, or share both on at the same time. Then you only have two handles to deal with.

    The second solution is to use a volume control valve for the shower head, and a Fix Fit wall outlet for the handshower. The Fix Fit outlet controls flow for the hand shower. The nice thing is that if you are putting the handshower near a bench (the ladies like this for shaving) you will have the flow control at the hand shower in easy reach of the seated bather.
  4. JohnIrish

    JohnIrish New Member

    Messages:
    1
    I have been researching the same question and I can tell you what I learned so far. I am not a plumber so verify what I think... EuroPlumber gives some great information.

    Hansgrohe also does make the Thermobalance III valve. This is a temperature valve and a diverter in one. This will let you switch between the shower and handshower or use both together.

    I do not understand how much volume control is available on the Hansgrohe Thermobalance III valve. I called the Hansgrohe technical support line and they told me it would also control volume. Call me a skeptic but I am not sure if I believe them. That is not what I have been reading in some other forums from actual users. I am still looking into that.

    Delta makes a 17T series valve that will control volume and temperature. They also make a 3 way 6 position diverter you can use for multiple devices. Volume would be controlled off the main control but then it would affect every shower head equally.

    The simplest solution seems to be a Thermostatic valve with individual volume controls. However, a stand alone Thermostatic valve seems to be about twice the cost of one of the combination valves (like the Thermobalance III).
  5. EuroPlumber

    EuroPlumber In the Trades

    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    North America
    Carlton is in the AXOR range of products. This is Hansgrohe's Lexus brand. The ThermoBalance line of valves is the Toyota version Hansgrohe line. Both are dependable, but AXOR has more performance and style.

    ThermoBalance III is capable of running 3 items, controlling flow on port 1&2, but not on port 3. Piperca said he only wanted to run 2 items in his shower so I will explain how he can do it with ThermoBalance.

    ThermoBalance II can run two items, but you cannot run them both at the same time. The valve lets you set the desired temperature and control volume to each outlet by turning the handle either clockwise or counter clockwise from the off position. All of this is controlled on one knob and lever combo handle. Basically two handles on one valve stem. Sounds impossible, but it works great.

    Thermobalance III can be used for two features but you have an extra outlet. The unused outlet should not be capped or plugged or it can damage the ceramic valving. So the way to pipe it is to run the bottom outlet 1 up and tee into outlet 2 riser that feeds the shower head. Outlet 3 pipes to the hand shower. This setup allows the shower head or the handshower run together or seperate. There will be an ability to control volume to the shower head and to bias the handle in the shared position giving either the hand shower or the shower head more pressure and the other less pressure. But the handshower must be full on when it is running solo.

    You could share both and get volume control on either if you piped outlet 1 and tee into outlet 3 riser, but you will get cross flow through the valve until it is trimmed out. This is okay for new construction, but crossflow on a remodel can be a hazard.
  6. piperca

    piperca New Member

    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    California
    Thanks for the responses.

    For simplicity we decided to go with the Thermobalance II. We haven't used it yet, since I am still working on the tile, but hope that it suits our needs. The wife likes the handshower and I'm not fussy. I liked the look of the Axor stuff, but, in the end, I couldn't justify the price.
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,270
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Be sure the device you choose for diverter purposes will do what you want to. You cannot use a valve with the conventional diverter for a hand held and shower. It only works for a tub or shower selection option.
  8. EuroPlumber

    EuroPlumber In the Trades

    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    North America
    The thermobalance 2 valve will work fine with a handshower. Not sure what HJ means unless he is refering to a diverter tub spout. Because a handshower can be positioned at variable height, it could be that a diverter spout will allow water to back up and out of the handshower when filling the tub.

    The ThermoBalance II has positive diversion and will not allow water to pass to the unselected outlet.
  9. miramax

    miramax New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    ct
    To EuroPlumber or anyone who knows the answer -
    We would be using Thermobalance III to run two items (overhead and handheld showers) and would like to have the capability of volume control for both by piping the valve as you have mentioned. Can you explain why cross flow on new construction is okay but might not be on a remodel? We will be doing new construction, btw.

    Oh and just to be clear about this, outlet 1 should be teed into outlet 3 (instead of outlet 2), right?

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,810
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Options for shower controls - AXXOR

    I personally don't like the fixtures that have so many options. Many allow you to control for example a Rain Head and a Hand Held - one or the other and sometimes both.

    Standing under a Rain Head pumping water out full blast is not so nice as a gentle drizzle. Have separate flow valves give you this option.


    If you can not control the flow rate of the rain head you may not use it that much....

    My thoughts.

    [​IMG]

    Here you see the AXXOR set up with two flow valves and one Thermostatic Control that holds the hand held.

    [​IMG]

    A gentle stream of water from the Rain Head. This can be set really so it barely flows and is nice in a steam shower to turn on to cool off.

    [​IMG]

    Or crank it full blast to wash your hair!

    JW
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,270
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    IF you need both a volume control and a diverter for two items, it would be more sensible to just use a volume control for each one individually and eliminate the diverter. That way, you can turn on the device you wish to use with one handle instead of turning on the flow with the volume valven and then selecting the item with the diverter.
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,810
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    HJ We have just that scenerio rough'd in downtown right now. We are waterproofing the shower walls and have left the Octopus of piping open so I can monitor all four flow values and the thermostatic control in a running water test.

    The client asked me to install rubber washers behind every fixture. I have not seen this done before ever but Dornbracht actually includes the washers in the package. To make life a little easier I'm going to use a scrap of Noble SIS on the plywood backer board and then wafer head screws and washers on the top side.

    This is to be done to reduce any vibration noise the fixtures could make while running....

    JW
  13. EuroPlumber

    EuroPlumber In the Trades

    Messages:
    34
    Location:
    North America
    Sorry to post so late on this. I should check in more often. I wouldn't use the thermobalance III for a shower head/handshower application normally, but I understand you may want to be able to run both at the same time and the Thermobalance II will not do that. Secondly the Thermobalance is discontinued for a few years now and service parts are only maintained for 10-15 years. After that other companies like Danco will sometimes make an aftermarket part but not on that valve because it is very complex.

    I would strongly suggest using iBox with 2 function volume control integrated. This valve is miles ahead of the Thermobalance and only slightly more expensive. This valve can run seperate functions or both together if you remove the handle limit ring.

    Dornbracht makes a really neat valve with all functions on one plate, but it controls one function at a time but never runs both at one time. Cal Green will not allow multiple shower heads to run at one time. If you are under such restriction the Dornbracht IMO 35426970-900010 and trim 36426670-FF0010 gives you thermostatic control and volume + diversion on two knobs The escutchion is rectangular and only 5-7/8" tall by 3-1/2" wide.

    In full disclosure, I have worked for Hansgrohe and currently work for Dornbracht. There are many brands and solutions out there. No matter what product you choose, make it one that will be around for a while. You are putting this into your walls and if you use cheap plumbing that does not have a repair part in 5 years, you may find yourself tearing out expensive tile.

    Again, please forgive my tardiness.

    Phil
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,810
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Hey Europlumber.

    Does any other company make a waterproofing system like the Dornbracht. IE the way the flashing pieces are designed to tie into the tile mud rings. I have yet to find anything as good as the Dornbracht rough ins.

    It is really such a simple design I'm surprised we don't see more of it by other makers.

    JW



    One Dornbracht thermostatic control valve and 5 flow valves. All of which are tied into the bathtubs waterproofing system.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2013
  15. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,270
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Does that system come with an "operator's manual" or wall diagram, so the user knows which valve to turn on for his device, or is it trial and error, (and be ready to duck a cold shot of water)?
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,810
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I'll make one up and have it laminated HJ! lol

    The system layout was designed by the designer and makes excellent sense. Each flow valve operates the closest fixture.

    Below the thermostatic valve operates the tub filler - Dornbracht Water Fall.

    To the right the hand held.

    To the left the ledgestone water fall

    above closest to does the rain head.

    Above farest up toes the Gessie vaporizers. These vaporizers are pretty cool - I've never seen them before this job.

    JW
  17. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,270
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Years ago, the contractor doing the plumbing at the missile site in Minot, Norh Dakota, was told he had to give operating instuctions for EVERY item he installed, including the shower. He wrote up a very extensive, and amusing, set of steps to using it, including how to make it a two person shower.
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,810
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I bet he got to bill for the play by play as well! Any chance you have a copy?

    JW
Similar Threads: Thermostatic mixer/diverter/flow
Forum Title Date
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Shires Thermostatic control knob Feb 18, 2014
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Grohe Thermostatic shower valve issue Dec 23, 2013
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog 1/2" Pex with 3/8" elbows for shower thermostatic & volume control installation? Nov 29, 2013
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog 3/4" or 1/2" thermostatic valve Jul 9, 2013
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog what brand is my Thermostatic valve???? Please HELP Jul 7, 2013

Share This Page