The downside to Fire Stopping on a Toto Wall Hung Toilet Install

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JohnfrWhipple

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Yesterday I learned a few lessons.

1). Make sure all plumbing lines are secured when heavy levels of spray foam are going to be placed in a job.

2). A Duravit Toilet does not fit a Toto Wall Carrier

3). Always trust your gut (not really new but confirmed yesterday).
It looked crooked and when I checked with my square it was out a good 3/8" (larger circle at bottom) from being square to the wall. I checked the infill (smaller circle at top) and it was fine it was just the waste line that was twisted.
The first thing the plumber said was "Did you fur the wall out?" - What a douche bag. of course it was my fault. had he looked close at the install he would have seen that the intake was square and the waste line was crooked. How would furring the wall out make that possible?

Then he spotted the spray foam. Or rather the orange Fire Stop Spray foam. Then he said. Must have been the spray foam. Same guy never tightened up the gear clamp on the Kerdi Line drain or tightened the overflow on the Kohler Tub. But of course it was the spray foam and this time I would tend to agree with him.

Not sure why there is such a massive amount shown above in the photo.

After dicking around for 40 minutes they got the outlet straightened. Came down to some Strong Tie and a couple of #8 wood screws. They found that once relieved of the spray foam the pipe was tipped topped to bottom as well - not just left and right.

The drywall flexed so much here. I could use my hand and depress the drywall over a 1/4". No good. So I packed in some Ardex X32 between the back of the drywall and metal support rods for the Toto Wall Carrier.

Then I thought. "Where is the bolts?"

Needless to say I did not tile that section yesterday. Make sure you support these pipes and ideally separate the spray foam from the pipes. In a case like the firestopping some strap tie would have gone a long way to preventing this repair in the first place.

had the Spray foam dudes did their work in two passes maybe the repair would not have been needed.

And how does someone who's job it is to sell toilets for a living not know that you can not use a Duravit Toilet on a Toto Toilet. Now my client needs to waste four hours returning it.

 
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DougB

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In the above photo it looks like the bolt holes (for mounting the toilet) have been covered by the drywall.

Seeing that the toilet is cantilevered by the two bolts - against the wall - I used cement board for that section of wall.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Thanks Doug.

I used the template to find the two bolt locations and wish I was given the job of boarding this wall. I'm going to pack in more Ardex X32 to make some strong points straight from the back side of the tile to the wall carrier.

The toilet we have uses the inside bolt locations. Once my tile layout is in place I'll carve away a little more drywall in front of the metal carrier support legs and this should prevent any movement.


 
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JohnfrWhipple

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Doug I can't find the flush plate. There is a piece of foam screwed to the wall now.

Do I tile up tight to that? Or leave a gap?

I better find the trim....
 
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DougB

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I don't think I had the foam. Maybe that's the finished opening size?

If you remove the foam - you will see the plastic water closet. The opening needs to be a little larger (maybe 3/8" - 1/2") than the WC opening. The base plate is plastic, an is held in place by horizontal spring tension (built into the right side of the plate).

Anyway, I think it would be good to test it before tiling.
 

Jadnashua

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Most of those wall-hung toilets have a 4-bolt system. The critical thing when tightening things down is to only get three of them tight, and the fourth just snug. The picture only shows the upper bolt hole location. Make sure there aren't also another set below needed for the toilet before you tile anything. The second set keep things from being damaged if someone tried to lift the toilet, and three points can become stable...adding a fourth with production variations is asking too much, which is why you only tighten three of them.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Hey Doug.

I found the flush plate and checked it against the foam rough in piece. The trim covers easy a 1/2" outside the foam in all directions. I removed it. Dry fit the piece and it looks like the foam is the exact size of the inner nub of the Toto flush plate.

Then because you warned me I read the instructions. Didn't see any reference for tile spacing. I looked at the measurements given for the Rough In and had a good laugh at your expense. The measurements given in the instructions are all wrong. One number was close. One was not. One metric conversion was right and one was way out to lunch.

Good thing I just eye balled it.... LOL

What are those Japanese Techs doing? The instructions for the Toto gasket and bowl install refer to using Silikon.... lol I know I'm the last one that should laugh about spelling mistakes but come on this is an expensive toilet.

Booking it to a friends place for some cocktails. I'll post a couple pictures later tonight or tomorrow of what I did. I keep the tile about a 1/4" away from the foam. That should work. If not I'll cut it wider in position....
 
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ShowerDude

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john ,

does this indeed mean you have gone cowboy on a toto install?

aka chucked the manual in the dumpster and made it happen?

in a lab setting the instructions likely would have failed?
 

DougB

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Here's a pic of the back of the flush plate:

I don't want to take the base plate off. It looks like the rough in opening is about 4 1/2 x 7 1/4.

The OD of the base plate is 8 1/8 x 5 1/4.

Note the little 'square' - I caulked this in - behind is the connection for the water for the bidet fitting - in case anyone ever wanted to connect it.


FP_Wall.jpg


FP_Rear.jpg


BidetFtg.jpg


FlushPlate.jpg
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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john ,

does this indeed mean you have gone cowboy on a toto install?

aka chucked the manual in the dumpster and made it happen?

in a lab setting the instructions likely would have failed?

You might say that. You will certainly say that after you see what I do next! lol

I have access from behind now so I'm going to install some more Ardex X32 and off cut of tile to brace the lower wall tile. The weight of the user will be picked up by the two installation bolts but the largest pressure point will be the lowest contact point. This spot happens to be where the plumbers ripped out the drywall to fix the out of square issue.

I should have re-boarded the area. Done lots of things but I banged up the tile with a little dap of X32 behind the spot and a tile off cut. After today this part of the wall will be stronger than anything else.

With the flex and weight of the toilet and the user I'm glad no silly foam backer board was used. I would have liked to have seen Wonder Board Lite and not drywall. But you get what you get and don't get upset as they say. The only place I ripped out drywall was in the steam shower.
 
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Reach4

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If I read correctly, the drywall will be carrying a compressive load. I wonder if a couple of strategically placed lag bolt heads might be made to carry that load. I would have thought that the carrier would have had some provision for carrying that torque-resisting load.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-wall-tank-instructions-are-wrong-help.45429/ looks useful. I did not analyze if the error it discusses is the same as JW noted.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Thanks Reach. Drywall can support the load of the toilet but it can compress a little. What I'm worried most about is the flex in the wall since the drywall crew did such a shitty job in this home.

I know a footing is supported by the ground. I know I have to dig away from a footing at a 45 degree angle. I assume dropping away from the lowest point on the toilet back to the bottom plate will do nothing but strengthen the job.

If it does not work and the tile cracks. guess who they will call?

not the plumber. Not the builder. Not the boarder. Not the taper or the painter. They will be calling me.

I have a good field test for this type of thing as well that I always do. Once the toilet is installed - stand on it. It makes a great two step when silicone is being placed up high. With my tile layout I have a very dodgy sliver cut that I'm worried about. Will see. I'm sure my plan will work and I will certainly test it out....


Left roughly a 1/4" gap around the foam thing.

back side of flush plate shown.

 
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JohnfrWhipple

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Whoops....

Imagine if I was some blow hard that was obsessed with following instructions EXACTLY. I would have busted out my tape measure and measured out a rough opening around the flush plate of 41.2 cm x 14.cm (412mm x 145mm). Then when the plumber comes in and goes to install the flush plate the hole is too big.

Who pays for that repair?

Who's fault is it?

I would blame Toto for such a crappy specification. But really any true tile pro would be asking for the finished pieces. If you don't have them and the tile guys asks for them. And then it does not work out. then you best be bucking up for some extra's.

You need finished pieces on site. PRIOR TO TILE SETING.

412mm x 145mm
41.2cm x 14.5cm

21.3 cm or 213 mm.



 
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DougB

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The "frame" behind the wall is steel. If the frame has been attached properly (to the studs). It's not going to flex - as long as the drywall / cement board is flush with the studs, and the frame is flush with the studs.

This is why I used cement board around the toilet - the compressive load at the bottom of the cantilevered toilet.

However, in my home the weight isn't that great. We're over 60 - and don't feel a need to do that kind of stuff in the bathroom any more!
 

ShowerDude

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Doug youre still a pup. Nice work guys.

ive got a few Toto toilets going in my current project.

thankfully NOT these wall mounts that are always a struggle.
 
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