Tank water levels

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Shawn Clabough, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    I have a 5600SXT unit with an 18x33 round brine tank. Approximately how high should the water be in the tank during and after a cycle?
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    All depends on the salt setting that you are using as to the level of water at the end of the cycle, if there is water filling the salt tank in the brine draw then the drain line is plugged and the water is going to the salt tank then and most likely even some of it in the backwash.

    Your question is very vague.
  3. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    The water level is normally about 12"-18" from the bottom.
  4. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    The water in the tank is currently at about 16". I didn't realize that it just soaks in-between cycles. Our old softener (Kenmore), I never saw the water in the tank between cycles.

    Our water:
    7.24 hardness
    2.2 ppm Iron

    Here's the current settings.

    40k grain unit
    VT dF16
    CT Fd
    NT 1
    C 24 (I think I need to change this to 32-40)
    H 20
    RS rc
    RC 0
    DO 14
    RT 2:00
    BW 10
    BD 60
    RR 12
    BF 10
    FM t0.7 (I have 1 inch lines on a 5600SXT. Should this be t0.7 or t1.0?)
  5. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    You would not have seen water with the Sears unit as it fills the brine tank or salt tank at the start and then uses what it put in.

    10 minutes at .5 would be 5 gallons and if the tank is 18" diameter I would be thinking that the 16" is getting high and the injector needs to be looked at or the brine piston is not closing correctly.

    What type of meter is the system using?
    the FM is the type of meter... not the lines in and out of the system.
  6. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    This is the unit I got just a few months ago http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/premier-performance-on-demand-40-000-grain-water-softener.html , with this bypass. http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/fleck-1-noryl-plastic-bypass.html

    FM is type and size, hence 0.7 and 1.0, etc. I just wasn't sure if it was line/bypass size or internal size (which is 3/4 on the 5600SXT)

    With this system, should it be leaving 16" of water in the tank after it's finished, or should it be empty? So, is the cycle (use->refill) or (fill->use->empty)?
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
  7. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,493
    Location:
    Alaska
    If you have more than 12" of water in the brine or salt tank then it is over full for your 10 minutes at .5gpm refill at the end.. there is some thing wrong there.
    Again your last step for the system is BRINE REFILL............
    As for the FM is t0.7 Fleck 3/4” Turbine Meter
    P0.7 Fleck 3/4” Paddle Wheel Meter
    t1.0 Fleck 1” Turbine Meter
    P1.0 Fleck 1” Paddle Wheel Meter

    What type of meter came with the system?
    Little one that looks like it not there or some thing that has a dome and takes up space between the valve and the bypass?
    little to nothing with strange clips is the 3/4 turbine and the dome taking space is the paddle wheel.......
    It is either one based on more of the fact that it is for an average home.
  8. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    No dome, so it must be turbine.

    I'll take out some of the water and run a cycle and see what level it refills to.

    Thanks for your help.
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,897
    Location:
    Ontario California
    t 0.7 is correct,

    Water level is as follows:

    1.105 Gallons of water per inch for an 18" tank, the water level will not drop below approximately 2-3" due to the lower aircheck,
    X .5 for water above the grid if a grid is present, salt diplaces approximately 50% of the water by volume. This is not accurate, it is only an indstry standard guestimate.

    16" of water w/out a grid would equal approximately 16" - 3" for aircheck, 13" of water x 1.105 x .5 (displacement) = approximately 7.2 gallons of water X approximately 20 pounds of salt per regeneration.

    Considering your 10 minute refill time, this would be fairly close assuming you have a .5 GPM Brine Line Refill button.

    As I said, the water level and salt displacement percentages can only be estimated, that is why float refill systems have been frowned upon for so many years, they are not accurate.
  10. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    What is there besides float refill systems?

    Why doesn't all the salt dissolve since it's sitting in water for a week or more at a time? Does the salinity get to a certain point and then stop dissolving?
  11. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,897
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Most modern Fleck, Clack, Autotrol, etc valves use timed refill. The float is simply a backup device to prevent an overflow should the brine refill valve fail, or if you were to lose power during the refill cycle.

    Water will hold approximately 2.7-3.1 pounds of salt per gallon of water, depending on water temperature, other dissolved solids, etc. At that point, the water is saturated and will not dissolve anymore salt.
  12. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    Thanks everyone.

    One last question. Would someone give me their recommended settings for my system?

    2-3 people with 120-150GPD usage

    Our water (~20GPG):
    7.24 hardness
    2.2 ppm Iron

    Here's the current settings.

    40k grain unit
    C 24
    H 20
    RC 0
    DO 14
    BW 10
    BD 60
    RR 12
    BF 10
  13. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,626
    Location:
    IL
    H 17 based on earlier numbers, but 20 could give some margin if your numbers were a little off.
    DO 8 Many think 14 days are too long.
    BF ? Did you go through a calculation on this? If that was the original number, you will be shortening this due to your de-rating your C to get better salt efficiency. To calculate BF, you will need the BLFC number.

    I would think programmed for 24000 grains out of 1.25 CF of resin, you would use BF 5 with a 0.5 BLFC, and 10 with a 0.25 BLFC... but check that out

    Here is a sticker identifying the BLFC (brine level fill control) button rating on a 5600 controller. This one says
    View attachment 22481 With BF 10, if you have a .5 GPM BLFC (Brine Line Flow Control ) , you would be using 15 pounds of salt per regeneration. If your BLFC is 0.25, BF 10 sounds good.
    I would think programmed for 24000 grains out of 1.25 CF of resin and 3,333 grains per pound of salt, you would want to use BF 5 with a 0.5 BLFC, and 10 with a 0.25 BLFC... but check that out.
  14. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    Yes, it's .50 GPM. It's a 40k unit, so should C be more like 30-32? I set H to 20 using this calc (2.2 * 5 + 7.24 = 18.24 + 1.75 margin). What should BF be with these numbers?
  15. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,626
    Location:
    IL
    If I followed http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm correctly, I think any of these pairs would work for you.
    C:25,DO:5
    C:31,DO:7
    C:32,DO:8
    C:36,DO:12

    Note that the first ones are more salt-efficient, and the later ones give more capacity. I suggest you do your own calculations, and/or tests of the results. Maybe Gary is being a little conservative, and C40 : DO12 would work fine. That C:32,DO:8 would have been C:32.4,DO:8 if the controller allowed that.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  16. Shawn Clabough

    Shawn Clabough New Member

    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Idaho
    So what should BF and C be for my unit? I assume BW, BD, and RR should stay the same.
  17. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,626
    Location:
    IL
    I had made a mistake in labeling the capacity as H instead of C. I have edited. I don't have a particular thought on the others, but I don't see why they would change.
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If I'm right they are factory default settings and should be changed (reduced) as to the volume of resin (1.25 cuft) and the salt dose settings. It takes 12.5 lbs to regenerate to 40K so it seems the salt dose may be the factory default. Usually rinse is a few minutes less than backwash. I'd suggest 8 and 6 minutes. Then the minutes for refill to get 3333 grains/lb efficiency. And to use like 1/4 cup of Iron Out every 4-6 weeks mixed into a gallon of water and poured int the salt water in the brine tank and wait 2 hrs and do a manual regeneration.
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