Tank air pressure for non bladder water tank

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by DonL, Jan 1, 2012.

  1. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Better is a quick connect fitting from your air compressor. Put a valve behind it, [check or other] click on your air hose and pump it up hands free. Your pressure gauge will read out your charge. Also its 1/4" and flows more, rather than a 1/8"

    Do this with the tank perhaps 3/4 empty and the outlet valve closed. pump it up close to the kick on pressure.

    But if you just want air you can blow away anytime you like, just dont take a walk and let it go to 120psi. Should use an oilless rig and a dedicated clean hose.
  2. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Good point Ballvalve.

    I do have one airline for my power tools and one with a water filter for my sand blaster.
    And I never use the No oil Airline on the oil output.

    I was going to use a Ballvalve for the shut off and just put a 1/4 inch air nipple.

    Would that be ok ?.

    It does get below freezing here and I am not sure if that combo / Ballvalve may freeze and bust.
  3. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    No natural disasters around here in recent history. Last major outage was from a tree under a transmission line in Ohio although at the time they tried to blame Canada for it.

    I'd keep that tank until it has so many wood plugs in it that it looks like a porcupine.
  4. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    What Happened ? Did You all have to many Grow Lights on ? lol


    So far no leaks in my tank.


    Guess that could change after messing with it and putting the Air valve on it...
  5. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

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    The good thing about a galv. tank is that it will keep pushing water out until there is no air left. Usually it is not a problem getting the air before the water runs out, but if you supercharge it enough I suppose you could get air. Normally I like my tanks to be about 50/50, and I don't think you'll run out of water before you hit the air. At either rate, you should have enough water to flush a few toilets, wash your hands, or brush your teeth before the pressure goes to "0". Probably the biggest reason why I'm not a fan of the little 4 gallon tank set-up. One toilet flush and you're done.

  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Ja, 50/50 is good. I think most AVCs regulate to about that. Topping up to that in the absence of a working AVC or snifter makes sense. DonL originally stated he runs his with 25% air which is not much drawdown and if neglected won't take long to waterlog. Supercharging was suggested but it comes with the risk of air blowing resin out of a softener. The odds might be small but increases with the number of power outages.

    IKWYM about a bladderless tank continuing to push water until the pressure is nearly 0 if not supercharged. A bladder tank is nearly empty at the kick-in pressure and has very little in reserve. If a galvanized tank is supercharged to about the same as a bladder, it too would have little in reserve. Giving a bladderless tank a 20 PSI head on a 40/60 system would give you lots of reserve and more drawdown.

    I often hear people say they want a bigger tank in case the power goes out, but usually they are considering a bladder tank. Bladder tanks don't have fussy AVCs to deal with and don't need topping up so they are good for displaced city folk like Zaza Gabor (Green Acres). I'm not a fan of those little 4 gallon tanks either.

    I have a 32 gallon bladderless composite WellMate precipitation tank for iron treatment. It is hydropnuematic and supercharged to rival bladder tanks. Air is entrained with a micronizer that has be maintained and the tank has an AVC that is also a high maintenance item. Unlike a standard bladderless tank, disabling/neglecting the air injection and/or the AVC on it is not an option.
  7. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    I agree.


    4 Gallons is not enough to Flush a Texas size Turd made from a Texas sized T-Bone steak.


    I guess the people that have them do not brush their teeth. lol


    Have a Great new Year... Bigger is better, so she says...
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  8. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

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    You are talking about an AVC, but what you really mean is air release. You don't have air releases on jet pumps.

    On a 120 gallon tank or any bladder tank, it's not the air pressure. It's always the volume. Half of a 120 gallon tank is 60 gallons of water. If you have 60 gallons of water in a super-charged galv. tank, you can easily draw 20-30 gallons out before you lose all pressure. Maybe more, I've never measured. If you're tank is drawn down 10-20 gallons when the power quits, you can still probably draw 10-20 gallons minimum. It's just the luck of the draw I suppose.

    Don, that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

  9. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Thats what I do typically. You can elbow it down and then duct tape a bag of grocery bags over the fittings, water in the tank holds a lot of BTU's. A lot of my pipe insulation is grnmas old poly jackets. If you had a big grnma with big hooters, her bra makes a good valve insulator. Mice dont like poly as much as fiberglas. And mice really hate old womens perfume - use it liberally in the pump house.
  10. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    lol

    You crack me up.

    I do agree...
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  11. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    I don't know if you just like splitting hairs or you have un uncontrollable urge to correct me. If it releases surplus air, it controls the volume, so it's an AVC. WellMate calls it an air volume control on my tank.
    http://www.wellmate.com/en-US/produ...matic-air-water-tanks/hp-quick-connect-series

    It's a pressure vessel. One cannot have air volume without pressure and still have useful drawdown. Not even in Texas. The volume of air under pressure acts like a spring to push the water out of the tank. Without pressure, you have only gravity. Put the tank on the roof and we won't need to have this discussion.
  12. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

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    *sigh*
    I don't know why these things always come down to a pissing match.

    I don't recall exactly who brought up an AVC, but you keep referring to an AVC in the system as an air release. Don has a 2-stage jet pump. He does not need an air release because he has no excess air. You don't put air releases on a well system unless it somehow makes air, like some wells near here that are naturally gassy.

    I just love it when a DIY tries to tell me how a well system works. Let me rephrase my answer. It's not about the pressure of air in the tank, because pressure is always controlled by the pump. It doesn't matter if you put 20 psi in the tank or 60 psi or air in the tank. The pump controls the pressure, not the air. What one tries to do is achieve about a 50/50 mixture of water/air based on volume. The volume of air in the tank determines the drawdown.

    Heck, I did one the other day and supercharged it to 2/3's air. Probably had close to a 15 gallon draw down on an 82 gallon tank. Also, here's a little trick. Most pressure switches are set either 30/50 or 40/60. Tweak the switch to 30/60 to get a little better drawdown.


  13. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    I think I was the one that said that I did not have a AVC, Because they did not work for me, My pump or tank.


    Sorry if I was the one that confused the unknowing.
  14. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    LOL it takes two to have a pissing match.
    You can get off your high horse cuz you are not the only one that knows how a well system works. Go back and reread post #7. Here, I'll make it easy for you.
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...der-water-tank&p=326623&viewfull=1#post326623
    I think this thread has probably run its course and there is nothing that you could teach me this topic, but I'm sure you will want to have the last word anyway.
  15. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    I do know that the Texas Wellman knows more about the Texas Water, Tanks, Pumps and the Cowgirls than anyone in Canada will ever know.


    Give credit where credit is due...
  16. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

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    Thanks Don. By the way, I really prefer to root for the Houston Texans, I don't care much for those Cowgirls up in Dallas. :cool:

  17. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    There is no such thing as "pre-pressurizing a non-bladder tank, because there is no way to keep the air in it, and the "pressure" will ALWAYS be the same as the water pressure at that moment. The best you can do is turn the pump on, and then when the tank is full, let a faucet "drip" slowly so it does not drop the system pressure too quickly. Then inject air into the tank to force the water level down to the desired point, (it will have to be by "guess" unless you have a glass sight gauge to show the water level). Then close the faucet.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  18. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Around here, an admission like that would get your man card revoked.

    hj, if the air is humid enough, the sweat level on the tank should give clear indication of the water level if you wait for the tank side to warm up to its surroundings. One can always lick the side of the tank with a propane torch to hurry along the process. I can usually tell just by holding my hand against the side of the tank, where the level is at but then around here water from the ground is damn cold.
  19. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    Around here the humidity is almost always high.

    When I drain the tank, and then refill it it is easy to approximate the level from the sweat or just by feel.

    It would be nice if I could add the correct amount of air without draining the tank every time.
  20. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Do you have a pressure gauge on the tank? I put in a nipple and a Tee so that I can have both a gauge and a schrader valve to use with my compressor. Half a century ago, I used a bicycle pump to add air to the tank. The tank was tucked under the stair landing and there was no room to stand up so I had to work the bicycle pump sideways. Remember it like it was yesterday.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
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