Swapping to flexible PVC - Thoughts?

[WellDown]

Hi All,

Well is 425-feet, pump at 365-feet and two lengths of 1-1/4 PVC at bottom and the rest galv. to the top.

A few years back we had to have the pump replaced so the friendly, local, no price fixing well contractor, one of three out here in the boonies, charged us $1400 all up. They said $700-pump, $700 lift and lower. Shopped around first and no surprises the other two exactly the same. Ahhh well, pun intended, captive market so pick a number.

Anyway, thought I would investigate methods of DIY when the pump or pipe needs replacing and found discussions on poly-pipe down to 500-feet. Sounds like a plan to me. Naturally, local guy never suggested it as an alternative to paying them to lift/lower.

So, anyone lifted fixed length (21-feet I think) and replaced with poly? I figured with poly I can run a stainless steel safety cable and haul it up and down myself with a powered winch. But first, I either pay $350+ for the well guy to lift the 190-lbs of water plus pipe. Or...

Thanks

 

[Craigpump]

Poly pipe sucks for that application that's why the pump guy didn't suggest it.

Why?

Because it's rolled when it's hot and the curl never comes out which leads to wire chaffing & pipe wear.

It's almost like having your pump at the bottom of a 360' garden hose, it's flexible and will whip around when the pump cycles on n off, beating up the wire and pipe. I have seen poly pipe worn through from whipping around.

190 pounds doesn't sound like much until you have to pull it straight up.

Who wants for 360' of pipe laying all over the ground getting covered with dirt, grass, dog waste.....?

Stainless cable, there's a disaster waiting to happen! If the cable ever comes loose and settles down around the pump, you'll probably never get the pump, pipe, wire and cable out of the well. Can you say new well?

Can you tell I hate poly pipe in wells?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WellDown]

Phew, let me start by saying, I am a retired Mechanical Engineer with 40+ years experience in the Oil and Mining Industries. I have seen a few wells in my time and 600-feet is just a slight leak-down to me.

Can you tell I hate poly pipe in wells?

Nope, but I can tell you have a vested interest in making people think there is good reason to not like polypipe. Why then do the two manufacturers I contacted about using polypipe recommend it down to 600-feet? Seems they have a vested interest to not be sued for recommending stuff that doesn't work.

Who wants for 360' of pipe laying all over the ground getting covered with dirt, grass, dog waste.....?

That makes no sense. The thing would only be out of the casing for half an hour. When you pull the pipe lengths where do you lay them? Our local guy just dropped them on the ground by the well head, dirt grass and all.

If the cable ever comes loose and settles down around the pump, you'll probably never get the pump, pipe, wire and cable out of the well.

That's nonsense.
A: How would it come loose? My level of workmanship is obviously a lot different.
B: The pump could be easily pulled up by the polypipe and or the electrical cable.
C: At worst, I have a spare well that is no longer used for the irrigation it was put in for long before I bought this place. I'd simply drop a new pump, cable and polypipe down it.

So, getting back to my original question, anyone have any good ideas for lifting the pipe lengths?

 

[VAWellDriller]

There is a tool that I have that works really well for pipe lengths. Google Smeal 6T.

I'm with Craig on the poly pipe.... it makes a great waterline but I hate it for hanging pumps for all the same reasons he mentioned. The reason your two mfg's recommend using it is because they are selling it........

 

[Craigpump]

Ah yes, a manufacturer...
Like they don't have a vested interest in promoting their product? What do I have to gain by giving you good advise based on decades of experience? It's not like I'm ever coming to Arizona to do pump service work.

Makes no sense.....
How long does pipe have to lay in dog waste before it picks up contamination and transfers it to your water supply?

Answer: Do you really want to take that chance? BTW, we lay sch 80 and galv pipe on a tarp or blocks to keep it off the ground.

Your workmanship.....

Who knows? That's like the guy who rebuilds his car engine because he wants it "done right" but doesn't have a clue on how to do it. But, that's ok, because there are well and pump professionals in your area that can probably fish the stuff out or drill you a new well if they can't... This guy thought he knew more than his pump guy too... Notice all that brand new wire balled up on the pump? It went on my junk pile after we fished it out....

 

[Valveman]

I agree with Craigpump and VA. Less than 200' and poly pipe is usually OK. With a high enough water level it can even be pulled by hand. But 365' plus a 40/60 pressure switch will put 215 PSI on what I presume is 200 PSI rated pipe. Not to mention the stretch and swinging problems. $1400 will seem cheap after you have pulled and set one like that by hand.

 

[Texas Wellman]

They changed the name to "Hunke". Don't really know why. Seems kind of weird that they would abandon 50 years of name recognition. Smeal also builds firetrucks so maybe they wanted to differentiate.

There is a tool that I have that works really well for pipe lengths. Google Smeal 6T.

I'm with Craig on the poly pipe.... it makes a great waterline but I hate it for hanging pumps for all the same reasons he mentioned. The reason your two mfg's recommend using it is because they are selling it........

 

[Craigpump]

I was told that Smeal was sued a few years ago because someone didn't strap their drop pipe down properly. Apparently, or so I was told, a car stopped quick, the hoist truck did too but the pipe didn't and went through the back window and severely injured someone. They quickly reorganized to limit their exposure?

 

[VAWellDriller]

I was told that Smeal was sued a few years ago because someone didn't strap their drop pipe down properly. Apparently, or so I was told, a car stopped quick, the hoist truck did too but the pipe didn't and went through the back window and severely injured someone. They quickly reorganized to limit their exposure?

That's exactly what happened..... actually I think the pipe wasn't strapped at all, and a piece of steel pipe hit a kid in the head giving him brain damage..... that's the rest of the story that I heard. Smeal was sued for not putting a front on the pipe rack. What a world. Now you can't buy a Smell, and you can't buy a pipe rack from anyone that doesn't have a front.

 

[Texas Wellman]

I get the lawsuit stuff but why change their name?

 

[Texas Wellman]

http://www.louthianlaw.com/20-million-personal-injury-settlement-sets-records/

 

[Reach4]

http://www.louthianlaw.com/20-million-personal-injury-settlement-sets-records/

Isn't the driver supposed to strap his load down securely? Ratchet straps are pretty effective when cranked tight.

 

[Texas Wellman]

Kind of what I thought. I can see though that having a front on the rack makes it much, much safer.

 

[Ballvalve]

Hi All,

Well is 425-feet, pump at 365-feet and two lengths of 1-1/4 PVC at bottom and the rest galv. to the top.

A few years back we had to have the pump replaced so the friendly, local, no price fixing well contractor, one of three out here in the boonies, charged us $1400 all up. They said $700-pump, $700 lift and lower. Shopped around first and no surprises the other two exactly the same. Ahhh well, pun intended, captive market so pick a number.

Anyway, thought I would investigate methods of DIY when the pump or pipe needs replacing and found discussions on poly-pipe down to 500-feet. Sounds like a plan to me. Naturally, local guy never suggested it as an alternative to paying them to lift/lower.

So, anyone lifted fixed length (21-feet I think) and replaced with poly? I figured with poly I can run a stainless steel safety cable and haul it up and down myself with a powered winch. But first, I either pay $350+ for the well guy to lift the 190-lbs of water plus pipe. Or...

Thanks

Done many 325' 1" poly wells and all set by hand. 365 is doable. I would try 500. Easy even if the water level is high. Use long barb fittings and 3 top quality US hose clamps with torque ratings. heat the pipe with hot water and use a torque wrench on the clamps. And then let them sit over night and retorque them before dropping. The idea about poly laid in the dirt is just dog-shit talk. The crap that goes down the hole from the well drillers rig and "clean" pipe laid on tarps is just as high. Poly can be laid on a 3' roll of clear poly if you are a purist, and you can have a guy with a chlorine soaked rag wiping it down as it goes down the hole. But ALL, and I mean ALL wells should be pumped at max and then correctly chlorinated before anything goes into the system. That means any hoot and holler Alabama driller can spit his tobacco juice on the pipe and have the well test clean next week. But drillers I know just count on our intestines to stand up the that dog crap on the 120 schedule PVC or the poly drug through the bushes. Do you well drillers sterilize your drill pipe when you drill a well with iron bacteria before moving to the next hose? Hah! Ebola transfer. Aids of drill stems.

Just to clarify, flexible pvc is white, not nsf certified typically, and has a pressure rating of perhaps 80 or 100 psi at 70' F. Typical use is for spas, but great for low pressure systems of any sort that you want to plumb up fast. Poly pipe is black or blue and goes up to 200 psi. But that is conservative, and I think the burst rating is about 500 psi+ down a cold hole. I would go 4 or 500 feet with poly, and certainly up to 350' without a thought. a big moak can pull it by hand and especially if you have a rope on it or a clamp to give godzilla a rest. Put some standoff's on the pipe to stop any fear of slapping on the sidewall. Well drillers hate it, I think, because their big trucks are not needed with it, and homeowner joe with a part of a brain and incentive can do it himself.

Now, if you want to plumb fast and easy in some crazy pump house, go with clear vinyl nylon reinforced pipe. Replaces tons of pvc fittings and that terrible glue, and if you get the USA version with data stamped on the side, its NSF and 150 psi that can last for 20++ years. Won't break in a freeze like that crap PVC. The key is getting the right stuff. Watts sells some junk that has no imprint, just some tag on the end - Made in mexico, and no temp/ pressure stats. Then there is the USA version [forgot the name, but 2x the spiral reinforcement, and full documentation every foot] Plumbing up a complicated pump-tank-filter system is really fast when you don't have to use a million elbows.

 

[Craigpump]

I can hear it now, Mrs Jones, we've got the fittings on the pipe, but you're going to be out of water until tomorrow when we can come back and try to tighten the clamps again before setting the pump.....

You may want to recheck your facts, sch 80 pvc has a burst pressure of 630 psi.

ONE guy pulling 500' of poly pipe?

I would speculate that 75% of the pumps we pull are serviced because of installations done on poly. The wire gets beat up, then the pump gets short amps and voltage, then it's all downhill from there. In comparison, I've got installations from the late 80's/early 90's that were done with sch 80 that are still working today.

 

[Valveman]

Hello Ballvalve, where you been? While I cannot argue that the vast majority of drillers and pump installers are the "hoot and holler" type that don't really know what they are doing, there are still a lot of good drillers/pump installers out there. A good pump installer will put the pipe on a rack, roll up the wire, and spray everything, including their tools with a chlorine solution before putting it back in the well. A good driller will steam clean the dill pipe and tools, especially if there is any chance of cross contamination. Then of course the well gets sanitized after the installation.

A good pump installer would also never install pipe deep enough to exceed the pressure rating. Sure you may get away with it because of the burst rating, but I wouldn't want to be libel for installing 200 PSI rated pipe in a well deep enough to cause 215 PSI.

 

[Ballvalve]

I can hear it now, Mrs Jones, we've got the fittings on the pipe, but you're going to be out of water until tomorrow when we can come back and try to tighten the clamps again before setting the pump.....

You may want to recheck your facts, sch 80 pvc has a burst pressure of 630 psi.

ONE guy pulling 500' of poly pipe?

I would speculate that 75% of the pumps we pull are serviced because of installations done on poly. The wire gets beat up, then the pump gets short amps and voltage, then it's all downhill from there. In comparison, I've got installations from the late 80's/early 90's that were done with sch 80 that are still working today.

Well, you are right about 500'. I have not done it. I said that I would try it. And I will soon in this drought because my pumping water level in a 700' well has gone down to maybe 290', with the pump at 300'. But the static water level is about 50'. and so big moak can still pull and especially place the pump without that 40,000$ truck. once the pump/ pipe run hits water it's easy. Also you can use a rope or SS cable and give the moak a break as needed while dropping the string. I used UF cable [perhaps not ecologically correct] on a few, and strapped it tight to the pipe with MANY heavy duty pull ties. All those ties are like a porcupine on the pipe and they make for light weight, but very useful standoff from chaffing on the well walls.

As for MS. Jones, you are right, if she needs water , you gotta get it done. So torgue your pipe string fittings early, then again an hour later, maybe with hot water - if you are a good detail guy - then toss it in the hole. Granma Jones deserves that. But granma also deserves that the tobacco juice, grasshoppers and dogshit on her pipe to be flushed out and the system chlorinated. That means she will have to suffer with drinking wine or vodka for 24 hours and showering with baby wipes.

As for Sch 80 1" pipe, the max WORKING pressure is an incredible 630 psi. [ real life conditions would keep that to more like 350 psi] The test pressure if the city inspector is watching is 1320 psi for x minutes. And then the rough burst pressure is actually 2120 PSI. Great pipe... just a PITA with all those damn joints, each one a possible failure point. That is why I stressed the importance of poly pipe working techniques - You only have a few failure points rather than many with PVC.

But piping is like so many other trades, you get 20 tradesman, and you get 20 different layouts and results. Some right, some wrong, and a few that are just perfect. I hate those hillbillies with their 2x4's on the rack with some old 3/8 poly rope pretending to hold them. When I see them in the rear view mirror, it's an instant brainsaving pullout for me.

On edit, another chart says stay under 400 psi working on sch 80 pvc, and burst is 2200 psi. Quite a range. But with water hammer from check valves and pump issues, it would not be hard to get to 2200 psi. I cannot find burst psi on poly pipe. Odd.

 

[Ballvalve]

Hello Ballvalve, where you been? While I cannot argue that the vast majority of drillers and pump installers are the "hoot and holler" type that don't really know what they are doing, there are still a lot of good drillers/pump installers out there. A good pump installer will put the pipe on a rack, roll up the wire, and spray everything, including their tools with a chlorine solution before putting it back in the well. A good driller will steam clean the dill pipe and tools, especially if there is any chance of cross contamination. Then of course the well gets sanitized after the installation.

A good pump installer would also never install pipe deep enough to exceed the pressure rating. Sure you may get away with it because of the burst rating, but I wouldn't want to be libel for installing 200 PSI rated pipe in a well deep enough to cause 215 PSI.

Been hiding out with stressful other issues about jobs, alcoholic and phsycotic workers and properties and well share lawsuits, just to name a few fun things. Now that you mention it, I thought about a well that I have on 160 poly pipe. It's been on for 10 years and I calculate [now] about 240 PSI at the pump. Looks like poly has a good bit of overload built in. By your definition of a good well driller, we just don't have any around here. The sanitation factor is still like a civil war battlefield operating room. And they don't have anesthetics when they hand over the bill either.

 

[PumpMd]

Here in Oklahoma by law we have to pour bleach down the well to care of any bacteria we might pick up for having your pipe & wire on the ground.

 

[PumpMd]

This is what we bought for people on polly pipe & home builders/well drillers that drilled a well in the backyard where you can't get to with a rig truck.