Sumersable Pump Replaced but same reults as old pump.

[NHmaster]

Bennie, I already suggested that but I guess it went un-read.

 

[Gary Slusser]

A... guys.... that's how the well driller that replaced the pump for $800 and didn't bother to go in the house to see (or ask) if the new pump fixed the problem did it.

There is a new 1/2hp 12 gpm pump installed in a 160' well. The driller also increased his water pressure to x/70 psi and didn't add air to the tank.

So unless there is a very low static water level in the well, the system should have enough flow upstairs although it is borderline with the utility sink in the basement flowing half open as in the video.

IMO he probably has bad valves on the lines going upstairs.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[NHmaster]

Agreed. I would like to see what kind of flow and pressure I am getting as close to the tank as possible first. Then I can start chasing down things from there. Had the flow and pressure been normal, and held for a reasonable amount of time ( 40/60 or 30/50) then I can pretty well assume that the pump is not the problem. Jacking the pressure switch up rarely achives the solution.

 

[Mobster]

Agreed. I would like to see what kind of flow and pressure I am getting as close to the tank as possible first. Then I can start chasing down things from there. Had the flow and pressure been normal, and held for a reasonable amount of time ( 40/60 or 30/50) then I can pretty well assume that the pump is not the problem. Jacking the pressure switch up rarely achives the solution.

I'm assuming you guys would like to see the gauge as I run the system for a while? I can tell you there is pretty good pressure at the source but with the valve open, the pump steadily loses pressure. Not a lot but it does go down slowly. I'll post another video.

 

[Mobster]

Well.. It's not really clear but, here's a video of the pressure gauge with the valve from directly at the pressure tank turned all the way on. The gauge slowly loses pressure and steadily lost pressure until it stopped right around 29 psi after 4 minutes of video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gKzFogiQkk


-----

 

[Mobster]

On your pressure tank, is there a tap? What kind of a well do you have and how much water did it produce when drilled per minute? Run water in ONE place as close to the pressure tank as possible and see what happens. At the tank would be great.

I don't have the specs on the well when it was drilled. I have only been at this house for 2 weeks.

 

[NHmaster]

How much of your house is piped in galvanized pipe? or is it just limited to what I can see near the pump tank?

 

[Mobster]

How much of your house is piped in galvanized pipe? or is it just limited to what I can see near the pump tank?

The only galvanized is right at the tank assembly.

 

[Mobster]

If you can find another driller to look at it, try that. I know around here no one would because of the check. These guys talk all the time. I would not let this go to long, I am sure you have no warranty on the pump now.

I could call this guy's brother who is also in well drilling. The guy that recently did my work told me how his brother, whom he affectionately referred to as "that idiot" are on non speaking terms because of some inheritance issue with the family business. I have had his brother do work for me at another residence and did a fine job. Why didn't I call him in the first place? Because the current guy came as a referral.

I would hate to use this to my advantage though...

 

[JohnjH2o1]

I hate to hurt your feelings pal but, it would take an "idiot" to work for you. Be real here, you at this point are using the guys pump and your intent was not to pay him.

Right on. This thing has been talked to death.

John

 

[Valveman]

His intent was to pay a professional to solve the problem. If the new pump had solved the problem, he would not have stopped payment on the check.

My calculations show that since the 12 GPM, ½ HP pump will build to 70 PSI and shut off, the water level in the well can’t be any lower than 109'. Pumping from 109', and holding 29 PSI, that pump should be delivering 11 GPM. You can add up the amount coming from all the open taps and check that out. Even if the water level pulls down to 160', that pump should deliver 7 GPM at 30 PSI. The problem is that holding 30 PSI in the basement, is only going to deliver 16 PSI to the upper floor.

If you had measured the GPM while running at 29 PSI, I could have verified the pumping level in the well. You could also run just the upstairs shower by itself, measure the GPM in a bucket, and check the pressure while you are doing this. If the pressure is holding steady, I can check the pumping level of the well from this as well, and you can check to see if this is the kind of pressure you want to see on the upper floor.

I would want a pump that could deliver about 10 GPM at 60 PSI in the basement, so I still had 46 PSI on the upper floor. A 3/4 HP, 12 GPM pump could deliver 9 GPM at 60 PSI, even if the water level in the well is 160'. Then it would also deliver 12 GPM at 60 PSI, if the water level never dropped below 100', which I think is the actual pumping level.

I believe the ½ HP is just not large enough to deliver the flow and pressure you need. If I were the pump installer, and you proved this to me, I would change out the ½ HP pump for a 3/4 HP, and only charge you the difference between the two pumps.

 

[Mobster]

I hate to hurt your feelings pal but, it would take an "idiot" to work for you. Be real here, you at this point are using the guys pump and your intent was not to pay him.

Let's get one thing straight here. I am not trying to get out of paying the guy. I will pay him for his services when he give me the the answer to the reason I called him. I didn't call him to "replace my pump" I called him and specifically noted the issue of no pressure when someone else flushes a toilet on the 2nd floor.

I just ask that he takes accountability for his business practice.

His diagnoses took 5 minutes.
He dropped the pump and left without checking to see if it had resolved the issue.
The total job took 40 minutes. That comes to around 400 to 500 dollars an hour. I don't think doctors make that kind of scratch.
I ran all the water tests myself.

Who are you kidding? How dare you insult me by insinuating I'm trying to get out of paying the guy or that I'm a bad customer. IMO you would be and idiot" to hire a guy that agrees with this way of doing business.

 

[Valveman]

I would go back! I want my customers happy. A happy customer may not say anything to the neighbors but, an unhappy customer will tell everyone he sees. If the driller takes this to court instead of trying to solve his customers problem, then he is an Axx H***! I would then go to the state board of licensing and file a complaint on the driller. This will make the driller pucker up, and he will all of a sudden be more than willing to help you solve your problem.

 

[Valveman]

You can see how much water the well is producing when all the taps were open. The ½ HP pump just won’t deliver enough pressure to supply the upper floor. Licensing may not get involved with the money but, the driller will do back flips to stay out trouble with licensing. The complexion of the business deal was changed when the driller took the money and didn’t even check to see if he had solved the problem.

 

[Valveman]

Then let’s go to court! The guy didn’t do what he got paid to do, so I would have no problem stopping payment. Bring in an expert witness, and this guy would have a hard time convincing the court he should be paid. A reputable pump installer would never do that. You either solve the customers problem, or you admit you don’t know what you are doing, and take your toys and go home. If the state can’t force this guy to be reputable, then I would put a sign in my yard, put adds in the paper, or rent a billboard to tell everyone how he screwed me.

The well is making plenty of water. It is making between 8 and 12 GPM (depending on the water level) while holding the 29 PSI in the video. A 12 GPM, 3/4 HP won’t pump any more than a 12 GPM. ½ HP. It will just give you 35 PSI more pressure.

 

[Mobster]

Black mail for money is a crime in most states. Did you agree to the pump?

You're way off base. I agreed to his answer to my problem which was a "solution to my pressure issue". Again, I hired him for his "professional solution" to my problem NOT to replace my pump.

Frankly, any moron could have walked in guessed the solution he did. I am not a driller and I could tell you there are more options in trouble shooting than going right to the obvious. What should separate the "professional" from any moron is; If the moron walked through my door and told me I need to replace my pump, I would tell the moron, naaahh, I'm going to trouble shoot the issue before I jump to the conclusions. There may be a smaller, less expensive answers to my problem. When I hired the "professional" I trusted his "professional solution" to my problem. His solution was wrong. Is that my fault? Should he continue to search for the "solution" to my problem as a responsible business owner, I say yes.

The check was canceled because he breeched my trust in his "solution" by leaving the job without checking to see if the issue had been resolved. He clearly had no intention other than selling me a pump for some quick cash. Take me to court, I don't care. That's just poor business.

I don't care how good his pump installation skills are. Again, I didn't call him to replace my pump. This seems to be an intellectual vs. labor issue here. There are two sides to the story I suppose.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Mobster, I couldn't hear the audio on the youtube gauge video but I see a check valve at the pressure tank. In many cases people that don't know better have a leak from the tank back to the foot/check valve in the well and add a check at the tank to stop cycling of the pump when they aren't using water.

I would remove that check valve and see what things look like, because a leak would rob flow and pressure.

What is the diameter of your well?

You notified the driller you stopped payment and told him to come get 'his' pump and reinstall yours right?

Or if he is going to stop warranty on the pump, tell him that he owes you a refund and please send me a new invoice minus the warranty cost, right?

If you go to small claims court, I have experience with two cases of water treatment equipment, he will lose and be lucky to get his pump back. I represented myself in both, one against a DA/lawyer coworker in the courthouse and friend of the customer, and won most of that one but lost the other to a dist judge that was family friends with my customer and he and the customer were volunteer firemen together and the customer grew up with the DJ's son which were each others best friends. The DJ was not running for reelection but was running for mayor, which he won. But I got my equipment back.

 

[NHmaster]

Where's Judge Judy when you need her ?

So, have we yet established that the pump is or is not delivering the proper volume and pressure to the delivery system I.E. the piping in the house. It's going to be impossible to make an educated judgment until you have some idea if the problem is with the pump/well or the house piping. To do that, you need ( as I have said twice before along with others ) to isolate the pump discharge from the rest of the house. The drain valve on the pressue tank would be the best place to do that. Put a hose on it and run it for 15 - 20 minutes and see if the volume changes. Observe how strong the pressure seems to be or better yet put a pressure gauge on it. If you are getting crappy pressure\volume at any time during the test, then you can narrow it down to well or pump problems that would include any piping and valves on the discharge side of the pump, before the pressure tank. If the volume\pressure hold pretty constant than you can eliminate pump\well problems and start troubleshooting the piping, and valves in the house.

I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV.

 

[Mobster]

Gary,

Yes. the minute I canceled the check, I called him to come get his pump / or repair the problem. He said he was going to send a plumber out to check my system.

I will try the check valve tonight and let you know if there was and change there.

valveman,

I like your numbers. It mathematically makes sense providing everything is functioning properly.

 

[Mobster]

Ok, removing the check valve improved the pressure at the shower while other faucets were running. I won't say it cured the problem but it definitely improved.

I called the well guy to come get his pump because I felt uncomfortable having another plumber come to my house and he replied, I will be there in an hour, I will take my pump but I WILL NOT re-install your pump and referred me to some other guy.

Lesson learned - always get a second opinion.