Sudden degradation of water quality

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tbiser

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Hi all,

I've frequented this forum several times in the past year - this is my first post.

I moved into a newly constructed home Sept 07, and my water quality was really good. It was the cleanest water I've ever seen and tasted. Though, when I closed on the house, we did have an issue with coliform and sulfer smell. We had the well treated a few time with clorox and had it shocked and then received a good bill of health from the county.

In the past several months, we've been noticing a rust smell and orange deposits in the toilet bowl and really thick deposits in the tank. For the first 9 month, our bowl and tank were spotless.

Here's a little info on my setup;

260 ft well
40 ft pvc(or plastic) casing
sediment filter with 5 micron sediment filter

Also, here are my water test results from the county in October 2007..

Alkalinity as CaCO3 122 mg/l
Calcium 32.2 mg/l
Chloride IC <5.0 mg/l
Copper <0.05 mg/l
Iron 0.13 mg/l
Hardness as CaCO3 (Ca,Mg) 96 mg/l
Magnesium 3.9 mg/l
Manganese 0.19 mg/l
pH 7.1
Zinc 0.71 mg/l

I do intend to get another analysis done by the county soon, but I just find the sudden degradation of the water to be too odd and wonder if my well has a problem. I called the guys who dug the well, and he says that there's no problem with my well that it's likely iron bacteria and that it is normal. He also says I must treat my well on a regular basis to keep stuff like that under control. Upon my own inspection of the well, I notice that the well cap doesn't appear to be air tight (loose rusty bolts) and the faucet on the well cap is already rusted. I'll take pictures and post later if that'll help. I plan on treating it this weekend.

Anyway, none of my close neighbors are having this issue - they all have great water. Me? I'm replacing orange sediment filters once a month and my wife is beginning to give up on the toilets. My neighbors say that they only have to replace their filters once every 2-3 months and that their filters turn a dark grey. My filter looks about the color of red Charlotte clay - smells like it too (rusty, earthy). Any thoughts? Is it possible that this issue is seasonal? Will it go away? I was hoping I would never need a softner or iron filter, based on past analysis. Any advise you can lend would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance and God bless!

Thad
 

jobuck

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Hey Thad

I am not a well/pump guy but we lived with iron bacteria for 3 years and I sounds like thats what you have. I had to learn more than I would like about iron bacteria, so maybe I can help or at least bump your thread.

From what I have read and experienced, it is nearly impossible to completely rid your system of iron bacteria, it has a slimy coating that makes it very hard to eradicate by bleach. Liquid bleach ends up mostly on your well wall/pipe etc. so I started using clorine tablets. This way you know for sure they reach the water.

Once the tablets are dissolved, you will need to run a hose back into the well and let it circulate to sanitize the entire well. And 24 hours was never long enough, shock it good when you can leave it for a couple days.

Some sources suggest the bacteria is spread by a dirty drilling rig or using unsantized water while drilling. I often suspected the ear whigs and spiders that would live in my well cap, buy a good well cap with seal. My well was also drilled in a very wet area that would have seeps or wetweather springs during rainy periods, so surface water was probably resupplying my well as the casing was only 20 feet deep.

I read once that the only way to kill iron bact for sure is to steam the well, sounds costly

I have read on this site that many do not suggest clorinating the well, but left unchecked the bacteria in my old well would clog the pump and completly ruin the well far quicker than chlorine would, so treating the water at the house was not an option. I would drop 8-10 tablets once a week to keep mine in check and it seemed to work for the last year. I was going to buy a well head clorinator that dropped tablets according to water usage, but moved instead.

good luck
ps turn your water heater up to kill bacteria too
 

Gary Slusser

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IRB is a large group of both aerobic and anaerobic types of bacteria meaning, they live in and out of water, on in and underground. IOWs they come into the well with the recovery water as you use water.

Consistently shocking a well can make the problem worse. Chlorine pellets can cause damage to a pump, power cable, metal casing and possibly cause water quality problems that are difficult to impossible to correct.

Unless the IRB causes pump problems, it's usually best to leave it alone in the well but shock the well like once a year or less frequently but, that runs a risk of causing the bacteria to produce encrustations that chlorine can not penetrate and then you're into a new well or well cleaning and rehab with acids and caustics and then more sanitizing. if you can find anyone to do a residential well.

IRB can easily be treated in/at the house but you need a disinfectant like chlorine or ozone, hydrogen peroxide doesn't always work.

Any well can have a change in water quality at any time, why wouldn't they when things underground change from time to time? Especially when we are talking about moving water; you pump water out of the ground, and water flows through the ground into the well to recover the well (actually to replenish the water table in and around the well). The ground is not a filter when we talk about water potability.

I suggest my inline erosion pellet chlorinator, special mixing tank that is equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank and then a backwashed filter using a special carbon to remove the chlorine and any sediment/dirt caused by oxidizing iron etc..

You need to determine if you have IRB. Any slimy snotty stuff at or under the water line in toilet tanks or on your cartridge filters?
 
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Leejosepho

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My filter looks about the color of red Charlotte clay - smells like it too (rusty, earthy). Any thoughts? Is it possible that this issue is seasonal? Will it go away? I was hoping I would never need a softner or iron filter ...

The water from my well is similar to yours, and Gary is definitely correct:

Any well can have a change in water quality at any time ...

I suggest my inline erosion pellet chlorinator, special mixing tank that is equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank and then a backwashed filter ...

I use a couple of in-line filters and an iron-buster salt mix (or whatever it is) in my water softener, and our water is nice most of the time. However, we had a lot of rain last week and now we are getting a bit of odor this week. A system more high-tech than mine might be best.
 

tbiser

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You need to determine if you have IRB. Any slimy snotty stuff at or under the water line in toilet tanks or on your cartridge filters?

Thanks for your reply... in my cartridge filter, there's nothing slimy or snotty (thank God!). It just looks dirty and looks like orange silt. In the toilet tanks, everything below the water line is stained orange. It rubs off a bit on your fingers when you touch it, but it's not slimy to the touch.. also, there is a bit of an oily-looking film on the surface of the water that develops.

I've been in my home a little over a year... is this something that I should expect the well driller to cover under his warranty?

I suggest my inline erosion pellet chlorinator, special mixing tank that is equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank and then a backwashed filter using a special carbon to remove the chlorine and any sediment/dirt caused by oxidizing iron etc..

I really have no idea what this is. Got pictures? Will it fit in my crawlspace? Also, what sort of maintenance/costs would be associated with a setup like this... trying to keep house as "low maintenance" as possible.

Thanks,

Thad
 
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Gary Slusser

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You need a water test for iron, hardness, manganese if possible and pH at least.

The orange is ferric iron (rust) caused by soluble ferrous iron and no sediment filter, or cartridge filter is going to solve the problem; you should remove the cartridge unless your water is visibly dirty.

An oily film is usually MRB or SRB (manganese and sulfate). Any odor to this water; hot, cold or both?

Reducing types of bacteria are harmless to humans and animals.

Surely you jest! a warranty, or guarantee on well water quality.... maybe a guarantee he'd get you x gpm of water within a certain depth for X bucks but no one can guarantee underground water quality or if they are going to find water past a depth he has in your neighborhood before.

Once you have the test data we can talk equipment sizing and such and how to install in a crawl space. But sorry, there is no water treatment equipment or house that is maintenance free and "low maintenance" is what my inline erosion pellet chlorinator is all about. Plus it takes up the least space of all your choices of disinfection, which we now know you need due to the oily film. You can visit the chlorinators category on my web site for pictures. Click the link in my 'signature' or check my profile.
 

Ms Thistle

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Wow

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here, I started a thread about my rust problems as well.

We have iron bacteria and iron, and it has because a HUGE issue -- every single person that has come to work on our system has been blown away. This thread offered a wealth of information, thanks! (Though I'm not sure why posters didn't refer me to this?)

I can understand why it could be more beneficial to shock at the filter site, instead of the well pump (which is what we had been told to do.)

We just had our system cleaned out and he put bleach in the softener. This morning, our water is the best I can recall. I'd like to keep it this way, so we may have to experiment with bleach more often. Can you do this too much?

THanks!
Kimberely
 

Gary Slusser

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Yes you can but if you use like two capfulls of non scented bleach mixed in a gallon of water poured into the water in the salt tank and then do a manual regeneration once every 3 months or so, that will prevent the IRB from colonizing the resin bed in the softener. Too much chlorine or the repeated use over time shortens the life of resin.

UV should not be used to control any type of reducing bacteria. It doesn't work well or solve the problems that that type of bacteria cause.
 

tbiser

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Hi All,

I just got some testing results from my well guy. He checked everything out and said it's definitely an iron problem. Water tests resulted in the following...

Iron 4ppm
Hardness 6ppm
pH 6

So, from the test last year, the pH dropped to acidic and iron was up significantly from almost nothing to 4ppm. Are these swings normal? Also, the well guy told me that this would likely get worse. Can someone explain why it's happening and why it would get worse. I feel like selling the house and moving at this point. What can be done to correct this?

Thanks,

Thad
 

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I think Gary Slusser is your expert!

Most drillers and pump people aren't water quality people and no they can't guarantee what God put in the earth.

It sounds as though you need a water quality person such as Gary Slusser.
 

tbiser

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Most drillers and pump people aren't water quality people and no they can't guarantee what God put in the earth.

It sounds as though you need a water quality person such as Gary Slusser.

Yeah, the well guy admitted knowing very little about water quality. I would imagine that the drop in pH can cause iron to leach into the water. But, what causes high pH? Could lawn fertilizer contamination causes the change? I know I need to do some sort of treatment of the water coming into the house, but I also want to prevent further damage or contamination at the well. I suppose the thought of the well water "getting worse" has spooked me a bit.

I know Gary proposed an inline pellet thingamabob, but living here in the humid south, pellitized solutions won't last at all. It would be a mushy mess in about a week. But given that I don't likely have a bacteria problem, is chlorine even necessary?
 

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Of course it's normal, it's happening and what would prevent well water form changing over time? I suspect you have a rock bore type well. Water enters the hole in the ground (your well) from different places in the well below the end of the casing. That happens cracks or seams in/between the rock layers etc. if there's any water that can get through them.

IRB lives in and on the ground on or under water. All bacteria probably produces acidic wastes and acidic rain could be a source of the acidity. Iron is the most or second most common mineral in the earth's crust, and water dissolves it into itself. So as a new well ages another source of water into it can bring 'unwanteds' in with it.

You need water treatment equipment such as I proposed above in IIRC my first reply to you, plus an acid neutralizer filter and softener.
 

tbiser

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I conducted another water test (twice) and confirmed the following;

nitrates: 0
nitrites: 0
Alkalinity: 120ppm
pH: ~6
hardness: almost zero
iron: 3ppm
bacteria: negative

Given that I only have a slight hardness and iron problem and no bacteria, do I really need all the treatment stuff? From the results, the only thing I'd assume that I need would be a backwashing sediment filter to take care of the ferric iron and sediment and a softener to take care of the ferrous iron and hardness. Wouldn't this approach be effective?

Thanks,

Thad
 

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The pellets in the inline erosion chlorinator are under water at all times. I've sold it to people all over the country and in Canada, it works very well and all the time.

I don't see any ferric iron in your water test results.

I won't sell what you're thinking of using because IMO it won't work well and I need a satisfied customer much more than another sale.

You need an AN filter, that will add hardness to the water and probably convert some of your ferrous iron to ferric and filter the ferric out which will then be backwashed out of the AN filter. A softener will then remove all the hardness and the rest of the ferrous iron, and any manganese in the water.

If you go with the chlorinator, all types of reducing bacteria, all other types of bacteria will be killed and the iron and manganese will be oxidized by the chlorine and then trapped in the mixing tank and any remaining is removed in the special carbon filter, along with the chlorine, and the AN filter and softener will not see any iron or manganese or chlorine.

There is no short cut to success and water treatment done right the first time always costs the least; especially at my prices.
 

tbiser

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Thanks for your reply, Gary, and most of all, thanks for your patience with me. I wouldn't want to suggest that you'd sell me anything that I wouldn't need, but I was hoping to educate myself on this stuff and try to understand why I need all of this stuff you're recommending and why my simple approach wouldn't work. Please don't take offense - I'm a very analytical person and want to make sure that I'm making the best educated decision that I can make, so if you see any flaw in my reasoning, please feel free to point out, in a scientific manner, where I'm wrong.

The way I see it, my water has 3 issues;

  1. The ferric iron.
  2. The ferrous iron, that stains my toilets and turns ferric in my seldom used plumbing, like my master bath tub.
  3. And, finally, the low pH which I believe is not really a problem since it appears that, at times, I have naturally soft water. And since my plumbing is PVC, I'm not sure that this will ever be an issue.

The ferric iron is what keeps clogging my sediment filter and leaving my water smelling like rust and dirt. I thought this was a lot of sediment at first, but now recognize that it is ferric iron. I've been having to change a 5 micron filter once every other week. I think most would agree that a backwashing sediment filter would solve that problem. I was thinking that maybe a tank with a layer of chemsorb (or other sediment filtering media) and a layer of activated carbon would take care of this and any associated rusty smells. On occasions, I've replaced my sediment filter with a carbon filters (even though they only last 5 days) and the water was awesome! Also, my point of use carbon filter produce a really nice glass of water - so, I really want the cleanliness that carbon brings to the water in every faucet of the house.

The ferrous iron, or clear-water iron, is the only other problem that I seem to have. After much research, I learned that a water softener can take care of small amounts of ferrous iron and that specially designed softeners (with a fine mesh resin) can take care of even larger amounts over iron, up to 10ppm. Further, I learned that water softeners are more efficient at this, at lower pH. Since my water's iron tends to fluctuate from a slight trace to up to 6ppm, my pH from 6 to 7.1, and hardness seems to come and go, I figure a properly designed water softener is the best solution for the ferrous iron and occasional hardness. Am I wrong? If so, please kindly explain why?

You need an AN filter, that will add hardness to the water and probably convert some of your ferrous iron to ferric and filter the ferric out which will then be backwashed out of the AN filter. A softener will then remove all the hardness and the rest of the ferrous iron, and any manganese in the water.

Can the AN filter effectively second as a sediment filter, or do I need a sediment filter, as well?

If you go with the chlorinator, all types of reducing bacteria, all other types of bacteria will be killed and the iron and manganese will be oxidized by the chlorine and then trapped in the mixing tank and any remaining is removed in the special carbon filter, along with the chlorine, and the AN filter and softener will not see any iron or manganese or chlorine.

So would this system look like this?...

Code:
"Inline Pellet Injector with retention tank"

+

AN Filter

+

Carbon Filter

+

Softener

...is that 3 backwashing devices that I need to install? Can any of these be effectively combined or mixed to reduce footprint and expense?

Again, thanks for taking the time to help.

PS - please note that I already have a mightypure UV filter that I put in when I moved in, though it's coated with ferric iron that I need to clean out. This might not be useful after chlorination, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to double-up on disinfection.
 
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Sammyhydro11

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All you need is an acid neutralizer and water softener. Your ph is low and you have elevated levels of iron. A down flow neutralizer will remove a 1/3 of the iron, elevate the ph, and the softener will do the rest. Check out my website and click on the water treatment tab and you can see pictures of a neutralizer and softener. It's not aimed at selling you anything, because i dont sell anything online.

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com
 

Gary Slusser

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Thad, I'm in my 22nd year in water treatment and still don't know everything. Water quality varies from one well or other source to the next and there are many different types of treatment equipment. I'm not a scientist but I've sold equipment to a fair number of them and engineers. You aren't going to learn all you would like to know in a short time frame, you'll have to find a dealer you feel you can trust and follow his suggestion.

Most all waters contain some dissolved oxygen, an oxidizer. It will convert some ferrous iron into ferric iron and your disposable cartridge has air in it when you put it in the housing, and it will trap that air in it, which will oxidize iron, causing the rusty colored cartridge. But you seem to think your filter is removing ferric iron. If it was, and you removed the cartridge, you'd see discolored water, but you don't.

Yes the AN filter is a good sediment filter.

Yes oxidation will form ferric iron/rust in the water lines.

Yes acidic water does not harm plastics, you have CPVC not PVC, but a 6.0 pH will harm all metals in the plumbing system. Like metal valve seats in the metal valves and fixtures. Naturally soft water is always low pH acidic and very low TDS and hardness, that's why it is called naturally soft water.

Sometime ago you said you had some type of reducing bacteria (and Coliform) and that you have a UV light. UV does not work on reducing bacteria and any H2S gas prevents them from working very quickly.

All that is why I suggested the types of equipment that I have. An in person conversion is the best way to explain all the ins and outs of all this. I usually spend from an hour to an hour and a half with everyone that calls me because it takes that long to educate them on why this'er that, correct sizing and all their choices of equipment. Actually I treat them as I would my grandmother whether they buy from me or not. I can't do all that in a post or email.

You are making incorrect assumptions about softeners and ferrous iron. You don't need fine mesh to remove up to 5 ppm of iron and with another type and an option or two, I have gone to 13 ppm.
 
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