Submersible well pump questions

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by blown, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. blown

    blown Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Wichita KS
    I have a 1hp submersible well pump that will go in an 80ft well (25ft to static water).

    I lost the instruction manual for the pump. It's a Red Jacket "Grizzly" 100F21125G7. It runs on 230V.

    There are three wires coming from the pump. Two black, one green. How do I know what to hook to what?

    I know this gets into electrical stuff, but what guage of wire should I use, and what size of breaker? There will probably be close to 200ft of wire to get 230V from my breaker box in the basement to the pump in the well.

    Do the connections on the wires at the pump need to be completely sealed from water?

    Also, how does a torque arrester work, do I need one, and how/where do I install it?
  2. Pumpman

    Pumpman Pump Sales

    Messages:
    191
    Location:
    So. Cal
    You have a 2 wire pump motor, which does not require a control box.
    The two black wires will attach to the pressure switch lugs marked load. The green is a ground wire and can usually be attached to a grounding screw on the pressure switch.
    You should use at least #14 wire from the breaker to the pump. I think you should be able to use a 20 amp breaker.
    The connections at the submersible motor need to be completely water tight. You can get a splice kit from your local pump house.
    The torque arrestor mounts a couple of feet above the checkvalve at the top of the pump. It expands the fill the void between the pump and well casing so the the pump isn't free to move around and chaf the wires.
    Ron
  3. blown

    blown Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Wichita KS
    Thanks for the quick response!

    I bought 10/3+ground wire. Looks like I actually just need 10/2+ground? (much cheaper) I chose 10gauge because of the length of the run; it could be close to 200ft total, from the breaker to the pump. Is this overkill?

    Where is this pressure switch located? On the pump? Or on the pump start relay?

    I think the sprinker guy will use 1" poly pipe for the main lines. So should I use a 1" pitless adapter? Or a 1.25"? The fitting at the top of the pipe accommodates up to 1.25", but I don't want to size up if it won't buy me anything. I also don't want to bottleneck anything.
  4. Pumpman

    Pumpman Pump Sales

    Messages:
    191
    Location:
    So. Cal
    The size of the pitless adapter will depend on the size of drop pipe you decide to use.
    It sounds like you'll be using this pump for an irrigation system, and using a pump relay to start and stop the pump. This kind of negates a pressure switch, although you'll need to use something to control the pressure, which could be quite a bit from a 1 hp pump.
    Since you're running the pump at 230V, you can use the smaller wire. The wire size took into account the run from breaker down to pump.
    Ron
  5. blown

    blown Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Wichita KS
    Thanks. Looks like I bought the wrong wire, but it's a roll so I can take it back w/o a problem.

    With the drop pipe and pitless adapter, I just wanted to be sure that I don't choke off the flow unintentionally. My sprinkler guy has chosen to use more heads per zone than is traditionally done because he expects more than enough flow from my pump, I want to make sure I set it up to give him the flow he expects.

    So, if no pressure switch, where does the torque arrester go?

    What is used to control the pressure? My irrigation guy made no mention of a regulator, unless it's just something that he's going to install and I don't need to worry about it.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2005
  6. Pumpman

    Pumpman Pump Sales

    Messages:
    191
    Location:
    So. Cal
    The torque arrestor installs right above the checkvalve on the pump in the well. It has nothing to do with the pressure switch.
    Talk to your sprinkler man and see what provision he's made for dealing with the pressure.
    Ron
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If your sprinklers are being fed before your pressure tank, that means that when the pump isn't running, the water leaves the pressure tank and goes back toward the well/pump until the pump comes on. Then when the pump comes on the flow has to reverse toward the tank. IMO that is not a good idea/design.

    Also, your well at 80' deep with a static water level of 25' may not be capable of deliverying the volume (gpm) of water that the sprinklers and the house require if used at the same time. You need to know the output gpm of the pump and the recovery rate of the well at the total 'head' of the system.

    As to the size of the pipe... depending on the volume (gpm) for the sprinklers, you may want the 1.25" drop pipe and the same ID to the tee for the sprinklers.

    I suggest you check out:
    http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pump.htm

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  8. Fuoti

    Fuoti New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Switch Wires / Using Ground

    I have a 1/2 hp 230V Gould Submersible well pump that will go in an 80ft well. Feeds small tank in crawl space. The system was replaced in March 07 (15 months old). This included new pump, raising the buried well case to above ground with PVC exension, and running a new flexible supply line & electric line from pump in well to the house (spliced before entering house).

    Had bad lightning storms last night. This morning we woke up to no water pressure. Could not get pump to run. Called plumber that did original job. They sent a tech.

    Diagnoisis - Had full power on both sides of presssure switch but could only get 140 pull outside at well case. Must have lost one of underground wires. Maybe at a splice???

    Solution - Switch wires in house and at well case to use ground wire. Pump works, have pressure.

    My questions and concerns:
    Is this the proper way to fix it? Or a short cut?
    Is my pump properly grounded?
    Am I at greater risk?
    Should they had dug it up and replaced the wire?
    At who's cost? Mine or plumber's?

    Any help is greatly appreciated!!!
  9. Fuoti

    Fuoti New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Please ignore reply

    Will post on new thread.
  10. Mnworried

    Mnworried New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Confused!!

    I apologize for not using this sit the right way, but I desperatly need some help and this was the only way I could figure out to get my question out there.
    We recently had to replace our well pump, and when they pulled the pump out, they were VERY confused at what happened. Apparently, our 10 yr. old Flint and Walling pump had been destroyed by something. The stainless steel on the pump had been "eaten away" (that was the well guys words). We are undergoing water tests at this time, but the next round could take one month to get the results back! I have 3 children to care for, that i can not bathe them in the water or consume or cook with the water!!!
    Has anybody ever heard of this happening before? Our pH was great, and now they are looking to Nitrates and bacteria, after that, they suggest we do metals and solvents testing! I am a bit scared!!!
    Any advice?
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Obviously it is a short cut to get you water now rather than a few days from now at what expense to dig up the yard but... if the ground is properly and profusely marked as HOT, some do it that way but... Why would you think that lightening strike (surge/spike) damage is anyones responsibility to fix but yours!!! Do you have lightening arrestors on your building(s)? ;)

    You should plan on digging up and replacing that cable and getting the ground back right.

    Usually there are no underground splices in a well pump's power cable except in a case like yours where you/they didn't want to open the wall to run the new cable all the way to the control box or pressure switch (at much more expense).

    Submersible pumps don't have to be grounded to operate, and if they are, it gives a great path for electrical current flow like lightening strikes to follow. You're lucky the pump and motor are ok. Do you suppose there are any holes in the casing or drop pipe (caused by the same lightening strike)... if so, would that be the plumber's/pump guy's/driller's fault? BTW, along with the pride of ownership, and responsibility of making the mortgage payments, you also have the right and responsibility to simply say NO if you don't agree with how and what someone is going to do or does to your 'stuff' in/at your house.

    And places like this will help you learn long before the guys show up, or probably, even while they're there doing this'n that. :D
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Well now MOM! ya just take a deep breath and calm down and we'll apply a bit of logic to the problem...

    Stainless steel is not indestructible and it takes a lot to damage it but sodium or chlorides can do it rather easily, or electrolysis, AND there is no reason to not use the water until you find out what and how much of it they find in it.

    Now if you think about it, you were using the water yesterday without any harm coming to anyone right, so use it. Just inspect the kiddies, and hubby maybe, for finger nails'n limbs falliin' off. :rolleyes: Or buy bottled water and shower at Mom's or the neighbors. In other words, the pump took a long time to be damaged and probably by something that is not harmful to you like electrolysis.
  13. Mnworried

    Mnworried New Member

    Messages:
    7
    well pump

    Thanks for the help Gary. I still think that we won't use the water until we get the next testing back though. By all accounts so far, it doesn't appear to be electrolysis. And thank the good Lord above, we all still have all of our limbs!! Nice to have a laugh now and again.....thank you Gary!!

    We got our Nitrates and bacteria test back, and all looks GREAT! So, i now need to find a lab to test for chromium and lead. That is what the health department had recommended. And NO, it was NOT me who called them, it was the well guy. He was THAT concerned with what he saw. I really do trust him and i am very thankful he is proactive instead of not giving a crap about us until one of us did lose a limb :eek:)
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2008
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Exactly what was wrong with the pump? Describe what it looked like in detail.

    So far, none of the things that have been tested for will "eat" SS.

    Electrolysis will. High chlorides and possibly sodium will.
  15. Mnworried

    Mnworried New Member

    Messages:
    7
    I did not look at the pump....to be honest, I wouldn't have a clue what it should look like. But, I asked the well guy to bring it by so I can take a picture of it. I have been in contact with the manufacture of the pump also, and I am going to email them the photo. I have mentioned electrolysis to the well guy several times, and he seems more than positive it was NOT the problem. The old pump was grounded with a 4th wire, as well as the new one he put in.
    I will ask the lab about chlorides and sodium. I have to make a decision as to what to do next....where to test and what type of testing. It is sooooooo difficult to find somebody in the area of Minnesota! Either they don't do residential, or they ship it off and it takes forever to get the results! I just want to be sure that whoever is going to do the testing, that they are dependable. Everybody I have been speaking with seems to be at such a loss, saying things like, "I have never heard of this before" or "why do you need that tested for" referring to chromium, metals, and solvents. I have invested so much of my time with this stuff!!! Guess I am learning a lot, which never hurt anybody! If I can figure out how to send the picture, I will do so once I take the photo.
    I really appreciate you help on this!
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Here are pictures of the pump. Anyone want to take a guess as to what happened to it?

    Attached Files:

  17. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Serious electrolytic corrosion!

    The following are just guesses; things that I would examine and try to rule out when doing a failure analysis.

    Were there chemical injections of any kind? I saw a 316 stainless float in a level switch get eaten away in a fairly concentrated bleach solution after a few weeks.

    I wonder if someone made a pump or an adapter out of zinc or aluminum? The material doesn't look like stainless, though the corrosion may have affected the appearance.

    The worst electrolytic corrosion that I ever saw occurred when someone put graphite gaskets between some aluminum parts. Very serious corrosion in less than a month.

    If you look at graphite in the table at the link you will see that it is the most cathodic, and will cause any metal to donate from the anode. http://corrosion-doctors.org/Definitions/galvanic-series.htm#Galvanic_Table

    It may be that there was a current leakage from the motor or wiring that was driving an "electro-plating" process, but that usually doesn't happen with alternating current. I would give that a high probablity even though I'm not sure how it would happen. I suppose it could happen if there is some kind of chemical reaction that is creating a diode that rectifies the current.

    I have seen reactions that remove iron from cast iron in the presence of copper where there is high carbon content in the cast iron. It might happen if bronze or monel fasteners were used with an incompatible alloy.

    Is there any source of DC current, such as a solar system or a battery charger or battery backup?

    Any kind of DC system that had a connection to the system might put a DC current into it that would not be apparent without measurements

    It might be that there was a bad connection on one lead and/or a leakage to ground that caused current to go through the joint.

    Was it a 120 or 240 Volt motor? If 120 then one leg was already grounded.

    I would sure like to know the answer when it is found.
  18. Mnworried

    Mnworried New Member

    Messages:
    7
    I can't wait to get the answer myself, so I will be sure to post any info I receive on this puzzle! Thank you for the advice! I am going to take all of the ideas from here, and sit down and have a chat with our well guy and the maker of the pump! If I could get back to more of a regular life before a month, that would be awesome!!
    I finally figured out how to post a new question, but couldn't get my pictures on there....so, wonderful Gary had to help me AGAIN!!
    My new question is "Something ate my well pump", so if you have any advice, please post it under that one.
    Thanks everybody!!
Similar Threads: Submersible pump
Forum Title Date
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Tankless Submersible Well Pump losing pressure Jul 7, 2014
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Submersible Pump Problem Jun 30, 2014
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Submersible Well Pump Dying? Jun 25, 2014
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog Help checking my installation plan for submersible pump (and a question) Jun 7, 2014
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog 2" submersible pumps? May 3, 2014

Share This Page