Submersible Pump Recommendation

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Well Problems, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. Well Problems

    Well Problems New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Saint Charles, IL
    I need help in choosing the correct submersible pump for our deep well. Currently we have a deep well jet pump and it stopped working. Everyone in our area has submersible pumps and we would like to switch our current set-up to submersible, but we are stomped at the choices of submersible pumps and are not sure which one will work best for our well. We will be doing the installation ourselves. We were not given much information about our well when we purchased the house, I am providing you with the information that we do have. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You!

    Type of pump?
    Jet Pump (above ground) - Sta-Rite
    One or two pipes down the well - 2 pipes

    Size of Pump?
    Motor Horsepower? 1 HP
    Pump Model # - MSE-7
    Date Pump Installed - 1999

    Pumping from?
    Water Well -
    Depth of well - 130 feet
    Depth to water - 100 feet - Water starts at 100 feet, we have 30 feet of water
    The ejector currently sits at 115 feet
    Pipe Size - We have two pipes 1 1/2" and 1 1/4"
    Drop Pipe Material
    Poly Pipe

    Well Recovery Rate - not sure
    According to the pump manual performance chart with 2 pipes 1 1/4" each we are getting 5 gpm, however are pipes are 1 1/2" and 1 1/4". I don't know if this makes a difference.
    Well Casing Diameter - 5â€
    Rock Well - ? Sand Well - ? Other - Not sure but we do have sediment that collects in the ejector, it is like a blackish oily sand and our water is reddish in color.
    Date Well Drilled - Not sure but at least 50 years old

    Well Casing Material
    Steel


    Pressure Tank?
    Bladder or diaphragm tank (one pipe to tank) - I believe it is bladder - One Pipe, it is a Flotec FP7120-08
    Size or model of tank- Flotec FP7120-08
    Air charge in top of tank, with pump off and water drained - not sure

    Size of tank - 82 gallons

    Pressure Switch Setting?
    On 30, off 50

    Pump Control Method?
    not sure

    Pump Protection
    not sure

    Filters or Softeners - 2 Filter and 1 Softener
    Before or after pressure tank - The filters are currently before the pressure tank, we want to convert them to after the pressure tank.
    Type of filter - 2 Filters Culligan R50-BBSA - 50 microns
    Bypass available - no

    Water Used For?
    House Use - yes - 1 Shower, 1 Toilet, 2 Sinks, 1 Washing Machine, No Dishwasher, 1 Outside Faucet, No Sprinklers
    Number of People - 4
    High Flow Showers - not sure
    Plus/Or
    Irrigation with timers - none
    Irrigation with hoses - none
    Heat Pump - GE Water Heater - 40 gallons


    Problems Experienced
    No Water

    Pump makes no sounds
    Pressure gauge reading - 0 psi

    Do you have, and know how to use
    an Ampmeter and Voltmeter - Yes

    Describe Problem - Looking for a recommendation on a submersible pump.

    Thank You!
  2. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
  3. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,583
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You can get as much water with a 7 GPM, ½ HP submersible as you ever got with that 1 HP jet pump. But I would use a 10 GPM, ¾ HP and up the pressure switch to 40/60. You will like the pressure much better.

    Some people like low pressure cut off switches. Others don’t like having to manually reset them after a power outage or dry well condition. The EPS15/99 is a digital pressure switch, with low pressure protection, that will reset itself after a power outage. And after an actual low pressure condition you can reset it by turning the breaker off and back on, if that is more convenient than going under the house to reset the pressure switch itself.

    See it here;
    http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/pdf/eps1599_brochure.pdf


    Or a Cycle Sensor will shut the pump off on low amps, if the well pumps dry, and can be set to turn back on automatically after a certain amount of time.

    See it here;
    http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor_geninfo.html
  4. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    553
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    I agree with valveman.

    You will get more water with a 1/2 HP submersible than you ever got with that MSE. I would also look at a 3/4 HP sub.

    Before I added any sort of low pressure switch why not run the pump open ended after setting it to see how much the well makes? If the pump runs out of water, you'll know you need to add something. If it never runs out then I wouldn't worry about it.
  5. Well Problems

    Well Problems New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Saint Charles, IL
    Thank You Valveman and Texas Wellman for your reply, it is very helpfull. Is there any brand of submersible pumps that is better or that you would recommend? Also, I noticed that they have multi stages, what does this do and how many stages should we choose? We only have 30 feet of water in our well the current ejector is at 115 feet, we don't know how many feet the drawdown is. If we put the submersible at 115 feet as the old one do you think it will work? Thanks Again!
  6. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    553
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    I sell and use Goulds, but there are lots of good brands out there.

    Anlything sold by Lowe's, HD, or Tractor Supply is pretty low quality. Try looking for an on-line dealer that sells professional grade pumps like Goulds, Grundfos, F&W, AY McDonald, or Sta-Rite. I think Myers has gotten cheapened, I don't use them anymore. A 2-wire pump will work just fine, no need for an extra control box with a 3-wire unless you really want one.

    Don't worry about the stages, just go by GPM. I would choose a 3/4 HP 10 GPM pump with a brass or stainless head. Don't get a plastic head pump. Set your pump on sch 80 screwed PVC with stainless or brass collars. I hear that black polypipe is popular up north your way but I won't use it. If you do use black poly pipe get 160 psi or 200 psi with stainless/brass barbed adapters. No rope or torque arrestors needed.

    Set the pump as far under the water as you can without sucking up any sediment at the bottom of the well is the best that I can tell you.

  7. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,583
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I see even the box stores have Franklin motors. I have put in thousands of pumps with plastic heads, and never had any problems. Just don't use any pipe dope or teflon tape when attaching plastic pipe to a plastic head pump.

    Poly pipe is OK, but I would use the long barb fittings so you can get at least two hose clamps around it.

    And if you use a shroud, you can put that pump 2' off the bottom. The following video shows a 6" pump with a 7" plastic shroud. But the same thing works for smaller pumps using 4" thin wall, 100# sewer type pipe.
    View My Video
  8. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    He SHOULD be using a long barb fitting as you mention, and most take 3 clamps. But that will likely be brass or SS and he will need tape or dope or both for that. I found a teflon pipe dope made by permatex that is just incredible. Pure white, can never get it off your hands, and seals anything. Does not degrade plastic.

    I would measure the output of the existing pump and match that flow with the pump charts at his depth.
  9. Well Problems

    Well Problems New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Saint Charles, IL
    Thank You Texas Wellman! We will be going with the Goulds pump, however I did have a question, you said "run the pump open ended after setting it to see how much the well makes". How do you run a pump open ended? Do you need a pressure switch to do this?

  10. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,185
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I would not run the pump open ended without knowing the well. You run the risk of pulling in a lot of sediment.

    I made that mistake. When I had my mud well bored, the driller pumped it with a 5 GPM pipe through 1/2" poly so it never exceeded 5 GPM. The driller's son sold me a 10 GPM pump and when I started it up, it sucked in so much mud that it plugged up the pump and jammed the rotor. I had to get the driller back to flush the mud out of the well.

    12 years later, I did a repeat blunder by lifting the pump up out of the pitless and again running it open ended. It sucked in so much mud that the pump would no longer go back down. I did eventually get the mud out and developed the well to the point it no longer brings up mud.

    Instead of starting it open ended, put a ballvalve on the end and start with it just 1/4 open. If the water runs clear, then you can slowly open it. If it runs dirty, don't open it up until it runs clear.

    You don't need a pressure switch to do that, just wire nuts and use the breaker to turn the pump on/off.

    When you drop in the pump, tape a length of 1/4" poly the full length of the wire to use to test the water level. Put a Tee at the top with a pressure gauge that reads down to 1 or 2 PSI as well as a schrader valve. That way you can pump air into the 1/4" tube and calculate how deep below water the pump is. The formula is .43 psi per foot.
  11. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    553
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    I don't have any idea what "mud well" is. I doubt you would have to worry about that.

    To run it open ended simply leave the pipe coming from the well to the house disconnected somehow...how exactly to do that varies from well to well. We don't have pitless adapters here so it would be pretty easy. With your well being a jet set up now I would assume that you don't have a pitless there either.

    You're going to have to re-do your pressure switch set up to accommodate the submersible.
  12. Well Problems

    Well Problems New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Saint Charles, IL
    I thank everyone for your information, you have been of great help to us. We have decided to go with a 3/4 hp and 10 gpm goulds pump. From what I understand we also will need to purchase shrink tubing to seal the wires and I also see something called snap-in cable guide, how do you secure this to the pipe? Also, I seen somewhere that there should be a check valve installed every 100 feet, would that be at 100 feet where our water starts (which would be 30 feet above the pump) or at the top of the pipe (100 feet above the pump)? Thanks Again!
  13. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,583
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Don't use cable guards! Just tape the wire to the pipe with electric tape every 10' or so. The pump should have a check valve built into the head. That is the only check valve you need in the system. Heat shrinks and butt splice connectors, yes!
  14. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,185
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I have not seen any issues with using standoffs and in the case of poly pipe consider it the lesser evil. Poly doesn't hang nice and straight and it moves around a lot when the pump starts/stops so the risk of chafing the wire IMHO, is much greater than the risk of a standoff falling off and preventing a pump from being pulled out.
  15. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    I'll second that. And the holes are not straight either. I love my standoffs.
  16. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    553
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Valveman the motors sold by the Big Box Stores are a lesser quality Franklin. Also I was told by the Franklin rep last week that the motors sold in those stores will no longer be the Franklin brand. I suspect they are going to come out with a new brand just for the Big Boxes.

    I don't have much of a problem with plastic head pumps either, but usually the cost between them isn't enough to worry about.

  17. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,583
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Yeah I have seen one. They have plastic end bells but still look ok. No doubt the plastic end bells are better than the aluminum ones which we had to warranty thousands of about 20 years ago. So now Franklin will just sell them under a different name the same way Pentair sells the same pump under a dozen names.

    I think it is funny they will admit to putting less quality in the pump/motors they sell at the box stores, but they won’t admit they have been doing the same to the contractor versions for years. So much for all those people who think a big corporation wouldn’t purposely lower the quality of their pumps to promote planned obsolescence and enhance cash flow.

    Just a few years ago installers would have quit a brand for the manufacturer selling direct to the public. Now they all do it. It maybe under a different name, but they are still selling direct to the public.

    “Recycled rubber in off brand Amtrol bladder tanks, plastic end bells on Franklin motors.” All to protect the contractor. Yeah right, I have some beachfront property in Arizona for cheap if you believe that.
  18. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    My supplier of 30 years sold me a special mechanism that I have bought from them for years. The price was $319 + tax, and shipping. Just for fun, went online to the mfg. website. There I can get it delivered without tax for $289. Was not available direct in the past. I did a little deducting in my check.

    They can't be paying more than 200 bucks for the item, you would think they can at least meet the mass market price as a "wholesaler".

    Actually right now you could get lake or river front land in Arizona for about 1/3 the 2006 cost.
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