Stronger Pump for Higher Pressure

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Bob1000, Mar 19, 2008.

  1. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    I had a 3/4 HP self priming pump boosting the city pressure , the max pressure that pump can make is 4 Bar (56 PSI) . I have also a 24Liter pressure tank and a pressure switch
    I set the pressure switch to 50/70 PSI ( which is the comfortable pressures for my house) and I had no problem in the past .

    Recently the city pressure became very low so the pump would not shut off at that setting and it will eventually burn out if I did not notice to shut it off manually during that low pressure hours.

    I posted here the problem and many memebers told me that I got the wrong pump because self priming pumps dont generate much of a pressure so I bought a 2HP cenrifugal pump ( Ebara 2CDX 70/20 ) which is the highest pressure I could find in that make for a single phase range , it can do 6Bar ( 84PSI) without depending on any city pressure and think it would work comfortably.
    Did I buy the correct type of pump this time?

    Please have a look to the pump spacs here at the following link and you can download the leaflet there as well

    http://http://www.ebaraeurope.com/appebara/?MIval=entrata&FLAG=

    Main features are Q= 20 liter/min at Head = 60 m which is equal to 6 Bar or 84 PSI

    Before I start the installation , I would very much appreciate your opinions or any tips
  2. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I don't speak Bar and Liters very well, but the link doesn't work.

    What you should have bought in my opinion was a jet pump. They typically make 60 + psi out of the box. I don't know what your using this pump for, but a 1/2hp jet would do nicely for an average home. A two horsepower centrifugal would be fine for an apartment building.

    bob...
  3. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
  4. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
  5. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    Self Priming JET Pump


    I TRIED TO FIND A JET PUMP BUT IT SEEM THAT THE TERM IT IS NOT KNOWN IN MY COUNTRY
    ALL WHAT I FOUND IS A ( SELF PRIMING JET PUMP ) THEN i AM MORE CONFUSED NOW BECAUSE I THOUGHT - AFTER THOSE DISCUSSIONS - THAT THE SELF PRIMING IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE JET PUMP
    Please have a look to this link then you would understand why I got the new centrifugal pump and not a jet pump

    http://www.ebaraeurope.com/appebara/?MIval=entrata&FLAG=
  6. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    Uhh, jet pumps are allowed to escape the borders of the United States. Don't know where you've been shopping. Here's one thought - in the unlikely event you cannot get your hands on a shallow-well jet pump (the best choice for the job) one might employ a deep-well convertible pump, with the shallow-well ejector assembly bolted onto it, which gives the functional equivalent of a shallow well jet pump, albeit at a higher cost.

    You do want a jet pump for your application. In terms of pressure increase, a half-horsepower jet gives you more than a five-horsepower centrifugal.
  7. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
  8. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    Equivalent to Jet Pump

    Thank you for your help , would you be kind enough to just log in to this web site www.ebaraeurope.com then click on products , you will see all different kinds of pumps produced by Ebara which is a very famous best quality make ( Japanease origin / Italian production for domestic pumps )
    You wll never find the term JET PUMP except in SELF PRIMING JET PUMP .
    Please have a look to the performance curves of those different pumps and advise me which one I should buy.
    It is very disappointing to me to have to buy a 2HP very expensive centrifugal pump while I could have bought a 1/2 HP JET PUMP but believe me this is the only pump that I found that can give 84 PSI at min discharge which is about 5gal/min
  9. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    I can't answer as to how pumps are named on the east side of the Atlantic, but almost any pump that can lift water could be called "self-priming" - makes it less than useful as a descriptor. "shallow-well jet pump" got me some UK hits.

    If you are now deciding to require a pressure boost of 84 psi, then you have changed your requirements from what you described in earlier threads. You are leaving behind what a jet pump can produce, and entering the realm of multi-stage pumps. Tread with caution, because these create forces that can damage your plumbing. http://www.ebaraeurope.com/appebara/?MIval=frame_prd&COD=90168
  10. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    Did you have a look?

    Did you have a look to the link I sent you ? Please if it did not work , just copy and paste into your browser and log in and have a look to the pumps types and tell me what you can consider equivalent to a JET pump or which pump curve would do the same job as JET pump
    I already bought that 2CDXM 70/20 2HP Twin Impeller centrifugal pump because I found it the ONLY pump in the single phase range which can produce 60m head ( 84 PSI)

    I WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY VERY GLAD IF I COULD DO WITH A 1/2 HP JET PUMP ( simply because it would be 20% of the price I paid for that very expensive $600pump ) BUT SIMPLY THIS PUMP DOES NOT EXIST IN MY COUNTRY !

    Looking forward to hear from you , I need to have your opinion prior to going ahead and install this pump in case it is the wrong pump again for any reason !
    Thanks again in advance
  11. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,588
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The 50 hertz curve shows that pump will deliver about 10 GPM at 80 PSI. So yes it should work. Their Matrix 3 would also work with a .45 KW motor. I can't believe there are not more types of pumps to choose from in your area. Maybe it is the 50 Hertz that keeps a jet pump from working properly. I don't have any 50 hertz curves for jet pumps.
  12. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    ebaraeurope.com has a crappy website, and I won't waste any more of my time with it. A two-stage centrifugal pump is massive overkill for a house booster. I really don't know where you are, and with whom you deal, but I could find some jet pumps on UK sites. Try this site and look for JP series pumps. They are also sold in the US, and are called jet pumps there. It looks like you may not have the advantage of using "jet pump" as a UK search term. Looks like another example of "two nations divided by a common language"

    There is no question that you do not need a boost of 84 psi. Not unless you are in a skyscraper. That kind of pump money would buy you an equivalent to a Goulds J5SH and enough pressure tanks to smooth out fluctuations in pressure.
  13. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    Location


    I am sorry about the web site but the house (3floors) is in Egypt and I can not hand carry a Goulds Pump from Uk to Egypt as it would cost a fortune

    I found a Goulds agent here tho but he does not sell Jet Pumps either !!! because they found that they would not compete on domestic pumps so they only deal in heavy industrial stuff and left the domestic pumps for the so many Italian makes here like Calpeda , Lowara , and Ebara which is supposed to be the best quality ever !!!

    Now , need final opinion before I go ahead and fix the pump I bought , shall I fix it and fix a pressure regulator at house entrance pipe ?
  14. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    Sorry, I thought you were a UK member. I know that there has to be an jet pump for you, no matter what they name it. The technology is simply too universal.
  15. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    I am a UK member but this is my family house here , believe me I searched the local market here for a JET pump that can give 60 PSI up to 1 HP , something like that Goulds one you told me about simply they do not exist

    It is really a petty to buy and fix a 2HP centrifugal pump while a simple Jet Pump 0.45HP would do the job !!!

    I have spoken to the technical departements of those 3 famous makes here and all of them did not have something called a JET PUMP 0.45 or even 0.75 HP that can give say 60 PSI on its own .
    That is why I had to go for the bigger centrifugal pump
    I think Valveman has had a look to Ebara web site and has found out they dont make such a pump , the 2 other makes are the same .
  16. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    If you want to solve your dilemma, then learn what the insides of a jet pump look like, then compare to diagrams of the pumps you can get. No question that Jet pumps can be had in the UK, if you look at the Grundfos pages.

    A jet pump takes the basic single-stage centrifugal pump a step further, by sending some of the output water back to the input side, using a nozzle and a venturi. The result is higher output pressure, at the cost of some of the maximum flow (which you weren't going to use anyway) - the right combo of pump and ejector (nozzle + venturi) assembly gets you up to 80 psi output pressure.
  17. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    Multistage / Jet pumps

    That is what I exactly did and I found that the only available good quality pump here which can do up to 6 bar ( 87 PSI) is that twin impeller Ebara 2HP one
    However , as Valveman discovered , Ebara have now a new product called Matrix pump which is a Multi-stage Horizontal pump( 8-9 impellers) that can do 10 bar ( 145PSI) with very small power 0.45 KW as I can see from the pump curve on website , I contacted the Ebara company for more technical details because it is marked NEW at their web site
  18. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    Try "nozzle" and/or "venturi" as search terms for the kind of pump you could use. No question that boosting more than 85 psi puts you in need of a multistage pump. 145 psi? Pop!! goes your plumbing.
  19. Bob1000

    Bob1000 New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Egypt
    will do....... , but of course I would never use any working pressure settings more than 85 PSI but it is always good to have a bigger capacity pump that can boost that much without struggling or needing any city pressure
    My idea as I said before is to set the pressure switch to say 60/80 then either use a PRV on the downstream set to 60 psi or use a CSV set at 85psi
  20. Wet_Boots

    Wet_Boots Sprinkler Guy

    Messages:
    798
    Location:
    Metro NYC
    It would be nice if the pump itself was not capable of doing damage. That's the advantage of using a jet pump for pressure boosting. I would still not abandon the idea of finding a suitable jet pump, since you'd only need half a horsepower, versus the 2 HP you're talking about. But if you can only use products by Ebara, you take what they got.

    (pokes around the Ebara website, while muttering curses about tech sites using frames)

    Try these for size ~ if that link works, you are looking at their 'self-priming' pumps, and some of them are jet pumps They even say so

    There is a 'hidden' danger to using booster pumps, which happens if the pump is too strong in comparison to the water supply. The pump will create 'negative pressure' in the supply lines upstream of it, and an underground leak in said lines becomes a source of contamination, and a danger to health. This 'negative pressure' problem is averted by selecting a pump that is incapable of moving more water than the supply line can deliver. And that's where a fractional-horsepower jet pump comes in. Even if you tried a multistage pump, you can find a fractional-horsepower model that has a limited flow capacity. Limited pump flow equals pressure-boosting safety.
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