Standard for Uncoupling Membranes

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Eurob

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Thanks for the link Roberto.

TTMAC Specification Addendums
Page 25 Under Membranes and Underlayments:


Uncoupling Membranes: These membranes are geometrically configured to create free space between the tile and the substrate which allows a combination of functions to allow tile installations over problematic substrates. These functions include independent movement between the substrate and tile, vapour management, waterproofing, supporting and load distribution. Mortar recommendations will vary from one manufacturer to another and manufacturer’s recommendations must be followed and take precedence over industry norms. There is currently no standard for uncoupling membranes in either ANSI or ISO, however one is under development by the MMSA (Materials, Methods and Standards Association) have currently created one performance criterion that the membrane must be able to achieve 50 PSI or greater shear bond strength after a 7 day cure per the test method in ANSI A118.12 Section 5.1.3. Consult the manufacturer’s written literature for specific application details. - See more at: http://www.ttmac.com/en/specification-addendums.html#sthash.x1ppmEBp.zgynrmxX.dpuf


Look at that. Lets break all that info down into tiny bits.

Key Point # 1

These membranes are geometrically configured to create free space between the tile and the substrate
which allows a combination of functions to allow tile installations over problematic substrates.
  • These functions include independent movement between the substrate and tile,
  • vapour management,
  • waterproofing,
  • supporting and load distribution.
  • create free space between the tile and the substrate
  • allow tile installations over problematic substrates
Key Point # 2

Mortar recommendations will vary from one manufacturer to another and manufacturer’s recommendations must be followed and take precedence over industry norms.

  • Manufacturer's recommendations must be followed at all times. Even if the Industry says different. The maker of the product calls all the shots with it's product.

Key Point # 3


There is currently no standard for uncoupling membranes in either ANSI or ISO, however one is under development by the MMSA (Materials, Methods and Standards Association) have currently created one performance criterion that the membrane must be able to achieve 50 PSI or greater shear bond strength after a 7 day cure per the test method in ANSI A118.12 Section 5.1.3.
  • MMSA is working on a standard. I never even heard of them before this day.
  • 50 PSI - this reference I have tested myself in my back yard no lab like setting

Key Point # 4

Consult the manufacturer’s written literature for specific application details.


Key Point #1

Hard to believe that the committee couldn't figure a specific test(s) which address these functions ? I am pretty sure data is already available , but is it used ? If there would be a big problematic issue with the product itself -- proven data or fails -- , then the standard designation would be nothing compared with the importance of knowing about them .

Do not forget that waterproofing is already covered by the ANSI 118.10 for some UCMs.

Key Point #2

Specific recommendations -- specific projects with specific requirements -- are excluded from general recommendations which are not included in the general literature . If you need or want to use a specific mortar for your needs , calling the mfg in general will solve the headaches . You will always have alternatives which are quite suitable for your needs .

Key Point #3

It is a start , but like the ANSI118.15 , things are not easy to decide . I am more puzzled why the UCMs lack ISO standards but let's not get it more complicated . I would prefer to get more psi out of it , but the theory behind it contradicts the need for more bonding than it is necessary -- not yet agreeing with it -- .

Key Point #4

Or the manufacturer, if the project doesn't list the application . No one over rules the mfg recommendations and if required , the combination of products can also be discussed and approved by different mfgs .
 
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Eurob

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I heard back from one manufacture that informed me that some of the Uncoupling membranes are failing because the "scrim" is coming off. This is leading to massive failures.

If the Scrim is coming off - is that not what it is suppose to do? Is that not "Uncoupling". Or is it coming off at less than 50 PSI force?

The Scrim is bonded with thin-set. I think this is the white fleece on an uncoupling membrane.

Time to search out the knock off's.


Now if this is happening. What should we do? Maybe we could test the Scrim prior to using the product? Maybe we could have a standard that uncoupling membranes must meet? Maybe....



Who that mfg would be ..... N ? ....... If the scrim is coming off , than it is quite important to understand why it did . Is the floor more problematic than assessed at the decision time ? Is the material faulty at the production process ? Is the transfer of mortar applied correctly ? Is the mortar ......? etc. etc. etc.

Without having the specifics , it is easy to dismiss the benefits or the membrane itself . I could argue -- not really wanted to -- that even in controlled environments and with specific recommendations and approved standards for materials , people choose to do whatever they see fit . Remember your shower bench ?

To answer your question , if the scrim is coming off , it is not uncoupling , Not in my books . My understanding is that the assembly , which the UCM is part of , passes the 50psi requirement , implicitly the scrim attachment . We are talking about horizontal forces , not vertical ones , right ?
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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Without proof.

Without pictures.

Without something - these are all just words.

How awesome it is to discuss, debate and re hash for years the failures of "others". Without a single documented case or photo online.

To put this into perspective I know of only one failed NobleSeal TS installation. The instal failed at the beginning and was noticed on day two of a three day flood test. The shower was built by me. I waterproofed it and the failure was in fact an "Installer Error". I knicked the membrane with my channel locks tightening down the top collar.

I shared this years back. Got lots of work over the post since people like honesty in contractors.

For years I have read versions of this "urban legend". Yet no one will post a picture or call a spade a spade.

This to me, in my eyes why I call this one big Game. The sales game.


When you sell a product you need numbers, charts, testing and the like. Some uncoupling membranes come with a ANSI 118.10 approval for shower waterproofing but do nit recommend them for this step. Why?
 
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Eurob

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Debate is beneficial for progress , it doesn't need to fail to improve the benefits or longevity of a product , installation or etc.

I am sure that testing the installation made you realize the rewards and got you make a rule ...... when waterproofing is necessary , testing it is also important .
 

Jadnashua

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One reason why the pockets in Ditra are shaped the way they are (in addition to that fact that it locks the thinset into the pocket) is that the inverted wedge shape is very efficient to spread vertical load onto the substrate underneath. A mat that simply has ridges (and SpiderMat uses fibers on top to provide the thinset/tile bond, not the geometric shape, at least that I can see) would not spread that load out as well. Vertical loading is via the 'pillars' of thinset between the tile, into the pockets, down to the properly embedded fleece on the bottom of the essentially incompressible membrane. Horizontally, the air space allows the tile/thinset layer to move independent of the substrate. Take a 12x12" tile, and provide >=50psi shear bond strength of the 'scrim' or fleece to the membrane, and that's 12*12*50=7200 pounds to shear off that tile...more than enough strength. Ditra typically tests out to around 75psi or better, so over 5 tons. It is imperative that the membrane is properly embedded into the thinset underneath it to provide both the shear strength and to provide the vertical load capacity.

The uncoupling mats can be used over green concrete, but should not be used where there is hydrostatic pressure from below. Vapor coming from a curing slab is one thing, water constantly pressing up from below possibly from ground water (high water table, poor drainage, etc.) is another.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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I was thinking.

Maybe the scrim on the uncoupling products is where the reference to bonded and unbounded comes from.

We know that Ditra is heat welded so their's is a mechanical connection of the scrim to the plastic.

What about Spider Web?

What about Strata Mat?

What about Dural?

Who's uncoupling membrane does not use a heat weld joint here?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Was looking at some older post on the "Ask the Tile Man" site and did a search for uncoupling membranes. Found this post from a few years back. Post ID 5767 from November 10, 2003

question.jpg
David Axley



clear.gif

I am a novice and will be installing ceramic tile over vinyl flooring. Do you recommend this and if so, what do I do for floor prep of the vinyl.

Answer.jpg


Vinyl can be installed over if it is propelry prepared meaning all bond breakers must be removed and any loose pcs must be removed and patched or filled in with thinset or patching compound. In addition you must determine that the floor assembly is within the proper thickness to support tile meaning a minimum of 1 1/4" thickness if not you may want to look at adding a 1/4" C.B.U. or an

uncoupling membrane
such as Ditra matting.

Cheers DK.


Now who would DK be? The DK user does love uncoupling membranes from the look of the post I read today. Here are a few more. Any idea men who the DK poster is on that forum?


Post ID 6985 - April 23, 2004

question.jpg
brandon from cinnaminson


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okay, now i am abusing your site. you answered my question about the redgard, thanks! you mentioned that sheet membrane is the best. i have heard different schoold of thought on this matter. i heard that sheet is not he best because is secured with thinset and it can shift a lot. it is good because of the uniform thickness though. i have also heard that a membrane that you put down is with a trowel or sprayer, is better because it will conform to the slight variations in the hight of a subfloor, or a slab. in other words, it almost acts like a leveler in certain cases? why is a sheet better, if thinset could crack, in cases of deflection, or a slab settling? not arguing, just would like a comparison explanation. thanks a lot!

Answer.jpg


Sorry, for the delay, I was out of town and the other tilemen asked that I answer this question. Trowel applied membranes are easier to work with when you have odd angles or irregular configurations to deal with i.e. a radius, or wave configuration. A sheet membrane can be made to work with these odd configurations but it takes some expertise and patience to make the cuts and/or folds. Fortunately, however since we deal with square and rectangular tile and stone normally we deal with mostly flat and perpendicular conditions which a sheet membrane can adopt to easily. As far as a trowel membrane being used to level on the floor, I would caution against it as these material are elastomeric in nature and when built up, they will become quite forgiving which will make the load bearing capability questionable. Depending on what attributes you are looking for a trowel applied membrane is a waterproof membrane but is very limited in crack bridging capability most cannot allow for anything more than a 1/64". A sheet membrane on the other hand is also a waterproof membrane and can handle larger cracks some upto 1/16" and a few possibly as much as 1/8". The bonding of these membranes when done with mortar often are quite rigidly held down to the substrate whch neutralizes their crack suppression capability. This is why some of the sheet membranes use a contact adhesive or a roll on primer rather than mortar. The best membrane in my opinion however is a configured membrane that has free space on it's underside commonly known as an "
uncoupling membrane

"An uncoupling system consists of a rigid plastic membrane geometrically configured to provide a grid structure of cut back cavities on top and interconnected channels of free-space underneath with an anchoring fleece laminated to its underside. An uncoupling system separates and protects the finished surface from movement stresses through in-plane geometric flexibility while providing a non-compressible supporting layer. An uncoupling system also provides independent moisture and vapor management through interconnected air channels at the substrate level while protecting the assembly from moisture penetration. Hope that satisfies your query.

Your welcome, DK.
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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One word for this post: WOW. Are you kidding me. Read the question and the answer from
Oct-14-2010 01:22
Post ID 12565

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Thanks for the advice regarding stiffening up the steam room roof. The roof is "shed" style (no trusses, just 2x6 joists) and is currently pitched at 4" per foot. Mr "Ask the Builder" suggests lath for the reason I mentioned. Some tile guys suggest waterproofing the backer board to reduce the likelyhood of water penetration into the board and beyond (virgin backer board is porousle Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} )- others are concerned about creating a "moisture sandwich". I guess I'll have to firm up a backer board and use whatever technique the manufacture recommends.

Water penetration into a cement backerboard on a ceiling is not a concern; however, a vapor barrier is a must behind it. Some Vapor Barriers can be installed on top of the wall substrate with tiles applied directly to their surfaces, such as Noble's "TS" and Schluter's "ditra-MAtt". They are both "fleece lined" and are applied with thin-set mortar, much like installing wallpaper and then tiled over. This method, if done properly, is industry approved. Armen


Good thing the forum uses Professional Moderators from the NTCA. How this info stay online and no one says nothing. What a train wreck. I would guess he meant to say Kerdi but did a typo. Or was Ditra allowed to be used in Steam shower ceiling with pitches of 4" over 1'?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Post ID 3451 - July 14, 2000


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question.jpg
John


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.......Where do you see the evolution in underlayments in the next ten years?We have evolved from "Wonderboard" to "Ditra". Do you see something even thinner like Protecto Wrap, that will be used over a single layer 3/4 inch plywood subfloor? We have evolved from 1 1/2 mud bed to Ditra. Where do you see us going from here?? Thank You ..


Answer.jpg



Dear John, It is an interesting question that you have asked and I have often wondered the same. The question is how thin can you go before you challenge the load-bearing capability of the system as a whole. The Schluter Ditra matting is 3/16" thick where-as products like Protecto-Wrap or Noble Seal are only an 1/8" and even thinner. The problem then becomes the physical nature how a load transmits through a tile assembly. A live or dead load does not transmit downward in a linear fashion but rather in a three dimensional 45 to 60 degree cone. The thicker the assembly, the wider the load is transmitted through the assembly as a whole. This is why a full mortar-bed was so successful with the large thick bed which the tile was adhered to. With a 2" mortar-bed if a 1/4" spike heel was applied with an average weight of approximately 120 Lbs, a force of approximately 1200 lbs per square inch would be created which by the time the load transmits through the tile and the mortar-bed it is spread over an area approximately 5" wide. Now if you take a 3/4" sub-floor with the tile and thin membrane such as Protecto-wrap the load is only spread out through an area approximately 2 1/2" and approximately 3" with the Ditra matting. Now think about the joist spacing of 16" o.c, if the load was applied directly in the middle, it means that there would be a span of approximately 5" on either side of the load which the system has to be able to overcome before it reaches the 2 x 10" joist. This is where the deflection criterion of l/360 comes in (see archives). The question that comes with these thin systems is then, not only can it distribute the load successfully but if there is some deflection, can it absorb the stress and not allow it to transfer to the surface of the tile. Tile and stone, as we know do not bend very well with their brittle nature. Compounding things even more is the popularity and continuing growth of large format tile. At one time a 12 x 12" tile was large format now we see 16 x 16", 20 x 20" and even 24" x 24". Now there are even less grout joints and the floor has become almost like a large sheet of glass. Take a peice of glass and bend it between two saw-horses and see what happens. It shatters, right, well think about your tiled floor in the same scenerio. Now, to actually answer your question, I think that the future of underlayments cannot get much thinner then the Ditra matting as it is currently designed. The other membranes such as Protecto-wrap and Noble are not recommended over a single layer of plywood and this is not an over-sight. Testing and practical applications demonstrate that they are not suitable for this type of application. What I do foresee is that with the increase in the size of tile format, that the use of proper movement joints will be needed, even residentially. Possibly, as frequent as every 12 to 16 ft. Some underlayments such as Hardi-backer have been advocating this for quite a while. Hope that answers your question, and your welcome, D.K.
 
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Eurob

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They -- S -- are pretty consistent through out the years of promoting Ditra -- UCM -- .

Now , we can guess that the angle on the ditra cut back cavities -- besides uncoupling -- is as such to provide the right support for the load , in an attempt to make the three dimensional 45 to 60 degree cone .

The engineering in the UCM -- ditra and the XL -- is brilliant and successful , but it is not a one method applies to all problems or installations . http://www.ttmac.com/en/skills-development-workshops.html
 

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Some great insight there John

agreed Roberto...

I have used a lot of ditra , never had a problem with it other than the crap thinset hoopla. now solved by ardex .
 

JohnfrWhipple

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I was in the shop just now and found my sample of Spider Web 2. Pulled on the back and a thick Scrim released easy. Looks like a super thick J Cloth. Furry as F___. Cant see how this can be heat welded like Ditra.

Now lets say they glue it on. Lets pretend that is considered un-bonded.

Lets pretend your client in the US just called Custom Building Products and Laticrete asking for floor prep advice. Laticrete suggested Strata Mat. Custom suggested WonderBoard Lite. No mention of Spider Web 2.

I find that odd. You would think they would recommend both.....

I wonder if Spider Web 2 is not holding up so well?

Like you guys I have installed a lot of Ditra and only had the one issue. The floor I had problems with did have ditra but it was stuck awesomly and did not uncouple. I'll be curious to see if Spider Web 2 sticks around another two years.
 

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Like you guys I have installed a lot of Ditra and only had the one issue. The floor I had problems with did have ditra but it was stuck awesomly and did not uncouple. I'll be curious to see if Spider Web 2 sticks around another two years.
The uncoupling with Ditra is from the TOP of the membrane, not the bottom bonding fleece (although it may move slightly). To pass the tests, the mat must provide at least 50psi bond strength...it should be hard to pull it off.

One of the big things regarding uncoupling membranes is that there are no industry standards, so anyone can call theirs one...that some work better than others is not obvious from casual observation. Ditra has been on the market for a long time, and when installed properly, seems to work just fine. It will take many years for most of the others to achieve that track record, if they can. Patents only last so long, but then there's always someone trying to make it cheaper, faster which doesn't always work. A standard for operations might help weed out the good from the bad, but the big question is: what functions and how do you actually test it?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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And the big Man. Da Man. Mr. Gobis in the House shares a picture of this product. Calls it XYZ uncoupling (real name is Keederoll)

The Keederoll requires bonding to the substrate and from what I can tell has the exact same warranty as Ditra.

Still looking for this illusive "Unbonded Uncoupling Membrane" Dave Gobis talked about way back when. Since my last post I also checked with another tile detective Donato Pompo about any news on "Unbonded Uncoupling Membranes". Donato could not answer the question either.

It appears that there is no unbounded uncoupling membranes.


IMG_7216-300x225.jpg

Keederoll Uncoupling Membrane​

Why would Dave write this: "Here is an example of a recent product:

The XYZ uncoupling mat provides a fast, durable and cost effective solution for tile installation. The XYZ uncoupling technology works by absorbing subfloor movements and reinforcing mortar; while the fabric allows for shearing movement to take place by separating the subfloor from the tile or natural stone. XYZ is an ideal product for plywood substrates providing reinforcement and strength.

Without a guideline or performance requirements you can call it whatever you so desire."


If uncoupling membranes have been around for twenty years - what's the problem? I think the membrane above might also be loosely placed in the glued approach to membrane building. Perhaps the fleece on the membrane above is glued to the heavy mesh below. Not heat bonded. Or heat welded. If you own Keederoll, is it far that your product is not give the same respect as the others? If you pay for a test like the others and their is no standards what is all the fuss about?

Or - as the little guys in the tile world. The tile setters do we get shielded from failures? Does every person who had a problem decide not to share it? Does none ever go online and call something crap. Other than men?


 

ShowerDude

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So a little Birdie Told me that post(s) on the other forum are "Disappearing".... Oh Oh. Big Brother raises his ugly head.

Not suprising. I see that forum as a sposored event from mfg . I do not see alot of flood testing going on there either?

corporate big brother scare tactics when it comes down to it.

you can work on your chevy in your driveway but you must install the brand Air filter we approve and since your driveway is not a ama garage we will tell you if you did it right !
 

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Im looking a pics on my iphone but XYZ is just a fiber mat??? one component layering of pressed fiber? is what im seeing?
 

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[/QUOTE]
Or - as the little guys in the tile world. The tile setters do we get shielded from failures? Does every person who had a problem decide not to share it? Does none ever go online and call something crap. Other than men?

[/QUOTE]


shielded NO. sent down the river and abused YES.
 
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