Spdt relay

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by jdanw, Jun 4, 2012.

  1. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    I think the guys have voted, and it looks like it's time to find a different way to install this project.
    I suggest that you have your wife read this entire thread.
    Terry Love
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  2. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    I DARE you to let your wife and your insurance agent read this entire thread!!!!!
  3. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    northfork, california
    Use a GOOD mechanical damper and control the fan with a simple winder time switch for about 20 bucks. No dangers to anyone.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
  4. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Thank you Terry
  5. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    I think this is a IBTL, what do you think ?


    I would have at least built it into a box.

    Enough said...
  6. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    Daniel, it " didn't seem too bad" to you, because of your lack of knowledge on it. Trust JW on this.

    *Should you ever go to sell, and, something happens to the new owners, no matter how widely, you may argue this point, you very well may be held accountable. I saw this happen once with an outlet in a livingroom that shot flames up the wall.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  7. jdanw

    jdanw New Member

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    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Why would you post this if it is doomed. Everyone is hellbent on me stopping and it seems there is nothing right about this, so what is a box going to do for me??
  8. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Location:
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    nothing.


    What you propose doing has been tried before and has always resulted in something bad.

    There are documented cases of such a rig causing the complete destruction of the home. Neither of the items are listed for use in the manner you are trying to use them. Those transformers are just like a light bulb and produces heat 24 hours a day 7 days a week and will result in a fire especially in that hot attic.

    Unless those relays are rated in horse power they will eventually fail due to the inrush current of the starting and stopping of the fan motor.

    I hope that you do understand, and by your remark of the many that this thread might help makes me think that you do understand, you are not the only person that has ever came up with this foolish idea.

    I understand that you think that the purpose of the fan is to remove odor but this is not true. The fan is installed to remove moisture due to the tub and shower. To remove the odor a simple air freshener will do the trick and will be a lot cheaper and a lot safer.

    If you are dead set on having something like this then have a whole house ventilation system installed. It will be a listed unit and should something go wrong you will have no problems with your insurance. If you rig something up like you have posted pictures of and something goes wrong you might be fighting with your insurance company to collect especially if it doesn’t get inspected. I can tell you with complete certainty that what is posted will not pass any type of inspection and might even cause your house to be condemned until it is removed.
  9. jdanw

    jdanw New Member

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    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Well, now we are getting somewhere. It seems the omniscient jwelectric doesn't know it all. If he would look at the diagram, he would see that the transformers are only energized when the switch is thrown...no constant heat (I've been looking at boxes and fans as well, if someone would actually expand on DonL's comment on the box, as I asked earlier if that would help. I ask this mainly because of JW's comment about rodents. I don't know how it is more dangerous then the two transformers in my basement THAT ARE ON CONSTANLY for my thermostat). The transformers came with the dampers, so I'm pretty sure they are rated for their purpose.

    Honestly, at this point, I'd like JW to step aside, comment no more and anyone else who is left standing and wants to help, ask me some questions and let's see if this will work.

    BTW, this set-up is not for ODOR, but thanks again for thinking you know it all. I have two ducts going to two different bathrooms, properly reduced, Y'd, unsulated, etc. ** Man, I can't believe I am having to do this just to get back to square one (I have a very long post in the works, but it seems that with this one from JW, I feel better about not posting it, because I think he needs to step back) **. It is designed for moisture removal all the way out of the attic, not just into the attic like some hacks do, so PLEASE, don't think you know me. If I prove myself to be an idiot, then by all means say so. But like I said in an earlier post, I'm ignorant, which is not a bad thing, we come out of the womb that way. But I can learn and want to.

    I went to another forum to see if there was another place I might get some HELP and I read a thread that devolved into a grounding and bonding class, as one poster put it, without the "OH CRAP THAT STUFF IS DANGEROUS. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, CALL A PRO, CRAWL UNDER A ROCK AND PRAY FOR YOUR LIFE". Although the OP ended up calling a pro and the POCO, due to the original problem, but it was refreshing that the pros on the forum came back over and over and helped everyone involved with the thread and subsequent readers, such as myself gain a lot of knowledge about grounding. I wish that could happen here...

    With all that said, I do appreciate JW's concern and it does not go unheeded. I have disassembled things before (black pipe for gas heater in the garage come to mind), because I could not pull them off, butIi am not to that point and I AM considering the danger, so at least know that message got across, I just might not be doing it your way or in your time frame. I always say, if you want it done you way, let me spend you money...
  10. Chad Schloss

    Chad Schloss Member

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    I don't think you're going to find anyone on here to 'help' you butcher that contraption together. No one wants to see you or your family end up on the street homeless, denied insurance claims or killed by fire. It's unsafe. You obviously have no understanding of what anyone's concerns are here, including how electricity works, inrush current, etc. I would think that seeing as you want to continue with this, this thread will be soon closed to replies by the moderators and if I were you, I wouldn't even try to repost it here. (or elsewhere for that matter)

    Good luck in your project. I hope you will just buy something off the shelf that has been engineered to work as you desire.
  11. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Location:
    northfork, california
    I likely have 50 relays in my shop, one machine with 12 or more, many that I built to control 3 phase machines, many with multiple delay timers to reduce current inrush. All in boxes, and all 30 years in the works, without any issues.

    But You are not stupid at all, you are just overthinking a very simple situation. Save it for something important. how about 2 of these twist timers?

    http://www.thefind.com/appliances/info-rotary-timer-switch
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  12. jdanw

    jdanw New Member

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    22
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Well, I didn't totally read JW's post, I just got pissed, sorry. I addressed the transformers issue he brings up. He talks about the relays, below is info from the data sheet for the relays, that was posted earlier:

    • Ideally suited for high-inrush fluid pump controls: pool/spa, water
    processing, emergency, chemical industry, etc.
    • High-capacity, high-withstand voltage relay with no contact chattering
    for momentary voltage drops up to 50% of rated voltage.
    • UL Class B construction standard

    Would they will suffice for a fan with specs as follows: 1.7 amps, 120 watts

    The point, I have been trying to make is that everyone is trying to tell me it can't be done, or rather I shouldn't do it, or do it their way. Not specifically why my way is bad or helping me solve the problem. Again, I go back to the box. I understand if open connections need to be in a box. I will make that a criteria. I understand if the relays need to be rated for the fan. I will make that a criteria. If the transformers should not be on 24/7, I understand that and can make that a criteria. But, I am not getting much help from the thread, just people telling me to quite. I am trying to pick the grain through the chaff, but it is getting frustrating. And during the discussion (if one ever ensues), I will want to discuss the importance and necessity of the information given, to understand why and see if there might be more solutions to that issue. Granted one person can just say do it this way, but I guarantee you there are pleny of places on this forum where many experts suggest alternative ways to do things, would do it different ways if they were doing it and bicker and debate code, so I know there is not ONE way/rule/law, it's all open to interpretation. Safety actually is the one rule and I intend to adhere to that, one way or another. And don't throw that back in my face, because again, it has not been said A is unsafe because of XXX. I can't fix a problem if I don't know what it is.

    I appreciate ballvalve chiming in on the switches. i have thought of those, but wanted something a little more modern, maybe even technological or sophisticated, whatever you want to call it. Those twist spring timers look like something my grandma had in her bathroom, just personal preference.

    I sincerely hope that I don't make any one mad. I dread starting to read threads and see them devolve into a flame war and I apologize that this has approached that. I'm sure there are years of dealing with people on the forum that make you wish i would go away and that is fine, but once you've said you peace, why not just leave it alone. Terry can delete the thread, people can ignore me, but coming back to debate it just eggs me on, and happily, JW came back one more time so i can make my point that all the information isn't out there. No amount of any one chiding me is going to make me quit until I want to quit. And I'm probably not going to quit until I know why I should and that I can't fix what is wrong. And it won't be from anyone's assessment so far, because as JW proved, enough information has not been given about what I am doing.

    Peace and thanks, honestly, for anyone who still cares to follow this and not write me off.
  13. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    You are correct in part with your adjective used to describe me, omniscient, as it concerns the electrical codes namely the NEC. I have been an instructor for the past 5 code cycles and deeply involved with my state in writing the manuals used to teach upcoming electrical inspectors for my state.

    The one thing I can tell you for sure and certain without one little bit of doubt is this will not fly and will in the end cause you much distress.

    As to my assumptions as to the reasons for such a dangerous installation I had nothing to base them on except past experiences.

    Having something as you are planning is not going to aid in the removal of moisture or having the fans run endlessly doesn’t either. The size of the fan is what will determine the amount of removal. It would be a lot easier to just replace the fan with a larger unit than take the chances you are attempting. You could do as the rest of us omniscient folks and simply leave the bathroom door open to remove this moisture or maybe you want everyone to think as I and think you have a bowel problem that leaves a pungent odor behind.

    In order for this jury rig set up to be compliant the devices and inductors will be required to be installed in a NEMA certified enclosure and all conductors in some approved raceway or cable that is secured to the enclosure by an approved fitting. The enclosure will be required to be bonded and all equipment grounding conductors will be required to be properly installed and bonded together.

    The use of the white conductor is not allowed nor is the grounded conductor of the circuit allowed to be switched; it must be electrically continuous from the supplying panel to the load it serves.

    You are correct in the statement that I didn’t look at the diagram you posted as it was at this point I was thinking about closing this thread simply due to the dangerous contraption that it is. The only advice I would give is the advice I have already given.

    Now you can proceed with the 10 steps on how to burn down a house or you can listen to the advice of a very seasoned veteran of the electrical trade and abandon this ridiculous idea. But let me inform you that the minute that this thread starts leading into something dangerous or a violation of the codes it will be closed.
  14. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Okay then let me address it this way but I will not go into a lot of detail as it would take weeks and you wouldn’t read it all due to its length.

    This simply says that if the installation does not conform to the minimum standards of this code it is unsafe.

    This means that any parts used for this installation must be listed for the job for which you are installing them.
    I could go on and post all the code sections that would address this installation but just reread the first sentence of this post and you will understand why I am not going to attempt doing this.
  15. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    "In order for this jury rig set up to be compliant the devices and inductors will be required to be installed in a NEMA certified enclosure and all conductors in some approved raceway or cable that is secured to the enclosure by an approved fitting. The enclosure will be required to be bonded and all equipment grounding conductors will be required to be properly installed and bonded together. "

    That is what I was thinking.

    I would not build anything like this without fuses also mounted in a certified enclosure. The main breaker gives very little protection, as well as wood mounted electrical devices.

    Especially when the Fan can make the flames larger.
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    When you're dealing with line voltage, the whole circuit must be designed, tested, and approved for the application and installed properly. What you are trying to do is available as a commercial product (FanTec makes similar things) that passes all those hoops. Nothing you do, while it might work, will have passed UL testing, or be an approved device. Your insurance and livelyhood is at risk when you deal with this sort of thing should some subsequent owner have problems with it and your insurance may be declared null and void should a problem be traced back to it while you are there.

    It's just not worth it!
  17. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    No body wants to write you off, they just care about your safety.

    I have built some crazy things in my day, but getting information on a forum can be misleading.

    Jim explained the reason very well.

    You can use the parts for a safer project.

    If you go with your current plan, You should not make it public.

    If you know what you are doing you should be able to do it without asking questions.


    Peace, Over and out.
  18. jdanw

    jdanw New Member

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    22
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    I don't understand which part of what I am doing is any different than the Fantech solution. The fan is designed for removing moisture from bathrooms. Fantech doesn't have powered dampers. I assume they are just back draft dampers, so when you turn their fan on it takes air from all places there is a grill. I guess I understand the relays maybe not being properly installed, but let's take those out of the equation and just wire everything direct. Switch comes on, energizes the circuit that powers the fan and transformer. Does this make a difference?

    How about if the fan plugged into an outlet in the attic? Again, switch energizes the outlet, just like the one in my bedroom that is designed to turn lamps on.

    I am redrawing the circuit and will finish depending on what is said to this...TIA
  19. jdanw

    jdanw New Member

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    22
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Then what's the point of this forum? It seems we are gaining something from this thread, even if it ultimately results in me changing my mind one way or another. If I "knew" what I was doing, I'd have just done it as I planned, never asked any questions and, as you guys say, have an accident waiting to happen in my attic. Asking questions is good...
  20. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    Location:
    North Carolina
    Here in lies the questions and comments that has been made about your installation.

    Just what are you trying to accomplish and how are you going about doing this project? How many different locations are you trying to control how many different fans and why? Just what purpose do the dampers play in this? Why they are even needed?

    Most people have a fan for every bathroom that vents to the outside so why are you installing this? Is there going to be only one fan that vents many bathrooms?

    If what you are attempting to do is use one fan for more than one bathroom then the mechanical code is going to require that the fan and exhaust duck work be sized to the amount of square footage you are venting.

    Maybe if we had more information about what you are attempting to do we could give more guidance but as I have already stated I have never seen this work in the many years I have been in the electrical trade. It is not that I want you to do something my way it is a simple fact of my past experiences seeing something like this attempted before that resulted in a complete mess.

    In my years of experience I have installed many ventilation systems where only one fan was used and the controllers were in multiple locations and every one of these came as a package unit and worked fine. I have also saw bathrooms where someone had tried to do what you are doing that ended up costing more to repair than a whole house ventilations system would cost installed.

    Based solely on the information you have given for the fans it looks like the small 25CFM fans that are installed in most bathrooms. If you are trying to use it for more than one bath it will need to be three times that size.
    My master bath has 81 square feet and I have a 300 CFM fan installed for it and I still have to open the door to get the mirror to clear. The fan is so strong that once the door knob is turned the fan will pull the door open so by this one can see that unless there is air introduced to the room then all the fan in the world is not going to accomplish moisture or odor removal.

    At any rate the relays and transformers have to be listed for the purpose you are using them for and they must be in an approved enclosure (not wood). The conductors you have must be either in a raceway or a cable and they must be secured to the enclosure in an approved manner. The same is true for the dampers and fans.

    I will be glad to guide you through this as long as everything you are attempting to do is code compliant.
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