Soiree Install Issue...don't think it will work! Please help.

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by mikkifinn, Oct 15, 2013.

  1. mikkifinn

    mikkifinn New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Hi...I live in an old (100+ years) row home and need to replace a horrible ProFlo toilet that has had many issues and now runs constantly, despite my plumber's best efforts. When I bought the house 5 years ago, we replaced the existing toilet with this, and it has been a nightmare. (my plumber got talked into it by the Ferguson guys and has been kicking himself ever since, so this time I am making the decision). The floor was already ripped up at that time b/c the sink was moved, but the toilet is in its original spot.

    I have done a lot of research (this site has been amazing) and I decided on the Toto Soiree. There have been some issues raised regarding installation. One supplier told me that unless I had new construction, or my bathroom was already gutted, it would not work for me b/c the Toto specs were 8" from the water valve. My valve is 6". He claims he has had many returns on it b/c it won't fit. I had read about the Soiree on here & elsewhere, and I never saw that anyone had to gut their bathroom to make it work. I found the posts on here by Terry about the Soiree working with a 5 1/2 " distance, and he eventually deferred to that.

    However, I have these copper pipes that run behind my toilet, and cannot be moved or hidden in any way. It was a flaw when I bought the house, but I have no real choice but to work around it, since my plumber said he couldn't move them b/c of grading. They are about 3/4" thick & run directly behind the toilet. It has not been an issue b/c there is plenty of room with the current toilet, but the Soiree goes way back, and it appears it must be installed flush to the wall. I have a true 12" rough-in, and now the issue is whether this will work b/c of the pipes. I have a photo & will try to post it. The pipes are 4 1/2" & 7" from the floor, respectively. If the Soiree has to be flush to the wall, it seems it won't fit. Is there any way it would? Obviously, I don't want to get it & have it not fit, but I am really disappointed.

    So, if it absolutely won't fit, here is what I was thinking for Plan B.

    - The supplier is telling me to go with Inax. I want a skirted bowl, and he says they are as good or better than Toto, just not as well known. They are cut out more in the back, so the pipes should not be any issue at all. I was considering the Rio Grande with the uni-flush as an alternative. (I don't like dual flush). I am a little hesitant since it is more of an unknown quantity, and of course, not as stylish as the Soiree.

    - American Standard Cadet 3 has a skirted bowl model, and seems to get good reviews. Is Japanese really better? They also have the Boulevard & the Town Square, which are more expensive. They all have higher MaP ratings than Toto & Inax, which confuses me.

    - finally, Toto has a relatively new model, the Connolly, which, unlike all the other skirted Totos, appears to be cut away in the back. I kind of like the Nexxus, too, but I can't tell from the photos if the back has the same issue as the Soiree. Also, is it as powerful?

    So, to recap, I have 6" on the water valve, a true 12" rough-in, and the pipe issue.
    I want a skirted bowl, powerful flush, which is not a dual, and ideally a large water spot, since I don't want a skid issue (another problem with the ProFlo). If the Soiree won't fit, what do you think my next best option is?

    Thank you so much!
    toilet.jpg
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,893
    Location:
    IL
    See drawings in http://www.totousa.com/Portals/0/ProductDownloads/SS-00401_MS964214CEFG.pdf
    huge2a.jpg

    I put red dots to proximate your pipes.

    In a pinch you can use the 10 inch Unifit adapter to make the toilet 2 inches farther from the wall than it would be with the included 12 inch adapter. However the pipe in you photo could be problem with 12. It looks close. Maybe you want to measure that 12 inches more carefully to see if it is 12.2 or 11.8 inches.

    Your supply pipe in the floor at 6 inches from the centerline looks like a problem too.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  3. mikkifinn

    mikkifinn New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Thanks. Terry did say in a post on here that 5 1/2" for the valve would work.
    Wouldn't the 10" make it 2" closer to the wall rather than further?


    Do you have any input on the Plan B toilet suggestions?
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    The 10" Unifit on a 12" rough-in would move it out 2", so instead of 3/4" behind, you'd have 2-3/4". THink of it this way, the 10" flange sits closer to the wall, with the 12" rough-in, the toilet would want to be sitting behind the wall. So, a 10" rough-in moves it out so the same toilet can fit.

    Now, double-check that model does use the Unifit adapter, not all do.
  5. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,893
    Location:
    IL
    I corrected my mistake above. I doubt that moving the toilet out another 2 inches would be a good solution, except as a fallback.

    I think Terry was referring to a supply coming out of the wall,rather than a pipe out of the floor, as you have. Thus the flare at the bottom becomes an issue.

    Other toilets? You like the look of Soiree, which I would consider to be a squarish retro look (but my characterization is probably off base). So I am presuming that is the look you would want alternatives to approach. Right? You are not primarily wanting skirted for ease of cleaning, I think.
  6. mikkifinn

    mikkifinn New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Thanks, jadnashua. Not only is math not my strong suit, that is a little confusing & counter-intuitive, at least to me. So this means the footprint of the toilet would change, and it would be 2" further into the room? Is that what you are referring to, Reach4?

    Reach4, I see what you mean about the valve placement. And you are right on with your characterization of the style; it is squarish and retro. But I did like the skirted, not just for how it looks, but also for ease of cleaning. The exposed trapway is a total grime magnet.

    It seems with all these issues, the Soiree is unfortunately not for me.

    The Inax looks a little modern to me. The Boulevard & Cadet 3 seem nice...good lines and not too modern. Town Square is like the Toto Guinevere, which is pretty, but a little fancy for my bathroom. I just don't know how good American Standard is compared to Toto & Inax. Like I said, they do have higher MaP ratings, which I don't get since Toto is supposed to be superior. And it's not like they are that much cheaper...the Boulevard is close in price to the Soiree.
  7. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,767
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Woah! Don't give up. Measure those pipes (and the baseboard). Is the flange centerline 12" from the finished wall or 12" from the baseboard? If from the wall, count the baseboard stuff. Then get someone here to tell you how much is behind the base. It's more than 3/4", because the tank goes further back than the base. It could be that those pipes fit fine. Also, you can cheat the adapter (and hence the toilet) forward a smidge if need be. As to the water supply, the toilet is 5.875" left of the other centerline of the flange at its widest point. If you have 6" to the innermost part of the valve (not the centerline of the valve), then you are fine. I personally would replace the actual knob/valve on there with a ball valve with a little teeny quarter-turn handle that doesn't extend beyond the contours of the valve (Dahl and a lot of other suppliers make them). It's an easy job. And if the escutcheon plate gets in the way, then just pull it off and seal around it.

    Any decent plumber who knows how to read directions should be able to get the Soiree in there, assuming that those pipes along the baseboard aren't bigger than they seem from the photo. It's easy enough to measure and then get someone on here to measure behind their Soiree.
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

    Messages:
    1,893
    Location:
    IL
    Yes. That would not be an ideal situation. I would think of that as an alternative in a pinch. If those pipes were 2 inches in diameter, that would be different. But as it is, if your rough in was exactly 12 inches from the wall,the closest the toilet would get to the wall would be a nominal 3/4 inch. It looks like the clearance to the wall would be a bit greater farther down near your pipes.

    I really think you should take more careful measurements. It may be that your water supply might clear, and you may even be able to move the supply over a tad if you have access to to a basement or crawl space underneath. I am not a pro.
  9. mikkifinn

    mikkifinn New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Thanks, wjcandee, I measured again & it is 12" exactly from the baseboard (which is tile) to the bolts. And it is 6" from the center of the toilet to the inside part of the valve. The pipes are 3/4". So maybe it could work?

    Any Soiree owners able to shed any light, or let me know the measurement in the back?

    Reach4, I don't think I can move the valve w/o tearing up the floor. I will check all of this with my plumber, though. Thanks. Will keep you posted.
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    The standard measurement is from the center of the flange to the finished WALL, not the baseboard. Not sure if that makes any difference in your situation, but it might. And, as noted earlier, the 3/4" clearance is to the wall from the tank, and the toilet bowl sits further out into the room to keep about that distance from the typical baseboard (thus has MORE than the 3/4" from the tank). Also, as already noted, you can 'cheat' the position of the toilet about 1/4" further forward without affecting performance. The outlet of the toilet (about 2-1/8" on this model) just has to point down into the drain which is at least 3" in diameter (and might be 4").

    If the valve won't hit the toilet, you could always replace it with a right-angle one to move the main part of it away, giving you room to turn it. If you notice on the diagram, where they show the valve and give the measurement, there's room between it and the toilet.
  11. jbf

    jbf New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    CT
    Lots of great info here. I am also looking to install a Soiree in a very small powder room in a 1920's house with 14" rough-in. Like the original poster, my concern is if my supply line will work with this toilet. The line is 6-1/2" offset (center to center) but is 14" from the floor which is pretty far off spec. I have looked at the drawings and it is hard to tell if this will clear the base of the Soiree. Can anyone give me their experience using such a tall supply line, or measure an existing install to see if this might work? Thanks in advance

    DSC_0118.jpg
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,770
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    It clears the base, but is very close to the tank. It may just fit between tank and bowl though. If not, the shutoff could be angled over.
    If you use the 12" Unifit that comes with the bowl, no problem.
    If you shift it back with the 14", that's when you will find out if it fits or not.
  13. jbf

    jbf New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    CT
    I really need to use the 14" Unifit due to the coffin sized bathroom (51" X 32"). Would it be possible to find an existing installation of the Soiree and just measure out my supply dimensions to see where it would line up?
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    The drawings on the spec sheet are to scale, so once you determine that, you could measure where the shutoff will be. First, print out the spec sheet, preferably blow it up to maybe as much as you can and get the drawing on one sheet. Find one measurement - say the height of the toilet. The drawing may say 28", and when you measure the drawing, it's maybe 4". So, for every inch on the drawing, it equals 4" in the real world. You can get pretty close doing this.

    Swapping the shutoff valve for a right-angled one may help, both with the knob in turning it on and off, and the supply line to the toilet itself.
  15. jbf

    jbf New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    CT
    Good suggestion on playing with the scale drawings. Unfortunately, it tells me what I do not want to hear. For the Toto Soiree it looks like the bottom of the tank is approximately 12-1/2" from the floor, and my supply line is at 14" height.

    I took a look at the Toto Vespin which has more vertical clearance due to it's 2-piece design. The bottom of the tank is about 16-1/2" from the floor so that works, but it is hard to tell if the supply line would clear the rear contours of the base.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    Drywall isn't that hard to patch (even if it's plaster)...had you considered just moving the line? IF that was the only thing holding me up, that's what I'd do. Now, if it was through the floor and I'd just tiled it, that wouldn't be fun, but still doable.

    I had to do some moving around at my mother's house with plaster walls, and used my RotoZip to cut out a chunk, after, I added some cleats to the back side, then screwed the old plaster chunk back, and filled the gap left from the RotoZip's bit. You can't tell where that was done, and it really didn't take all that long.
  17. jbf

    jbf New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    CT
    Yes, I've thought of it. The prior toilet had a wall mounted tank and I did not participate in its removal. When I got back in town the plaster was a mess, the old shut off valve was leaking and I had no flange on the floor. As you can see in the photo, I patched and repainted, installed a new pipe nipple and shut off valve and I have purchased an Oatley twist-n-set flange. I probably sound like a whiner but I prefer not to re-do all this (although I might have to).

    The house is old and the plaster is very hard, like a rock. I use masonary bits just to hang pictures from the walls. I believe the plumbing in this wall is original and fragile. It feeds below into an almost inaccessible crawl space. I have discovered over 18 years of ownership that small projects always lead to delays and some creative improvisation to complete. I just built a new lake house in Maine (original 1928 cabin destroyed by Hurricane Irene 2 years ago) and it is refreshing when everything is new and standard size. It's like playing with Legos.
  18. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    Other than being really dusty (a shop vac running while cutting really helps), my RotoZip cut the old plaster (from the early 1950's) quite easily. If you marked where the studs are, and cut a chunk out centered in the bay, with an edge on the studs, you may not need to install any cleats, just screw it back into place, then fill the gap. Since the paint is new, matching should be easy. If the pipe is copper, it should be easy...if it's say galvanized, THEN things get messier. Course, I do recognize, it doesn't always work out well...been there, done that.
  19. jbf

    jbf New Member

    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    CT
    Yes, galvanized. I may take it on anyway.
  20. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,770
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
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