Softener Test Results and looking for recommendations

[mikebryan]

I had my water tested a few months ago, after having a culligan water softener and RO for the last year and it is still staining sinks, appliances, etc.
I'm new to well water, so just went with what the neighbors have. I don't believe a water softener is the right option, so I got the KAR Labs test kit, these are the results from the water coming from the well not going through the softener, and have uploaded the results.

I'm looking for the best solution to avoid staining and be usable for everyday use. Like I said I'm pretty sure a water softener is not the answer for me, thanks for any help

 

[Reach4]

0.13 mg/L iron is not so high that a softener could not reasonably deal with it. 57.1 mg/L hardness is less than 4 grains. pH 8.1 is good.

It probably goes without saying, but is the staining rust colored or some other color?

Does the water to the toilet go through the softener? Is the piping to the toilet galvanized steel?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[mikebryan]

Yes sorry to mention the staining is rust colored and it's the sinks and tubs especially, and yes it's softened water going to them. I just figured with the tds so high in the water it must be causing the staining.

 

[ditttohead]

A softener would likely be nearly ineffective with your water supply. It may reduce the iron, but even that is questionable. if you notice the very high tds is caused primarily by high sodium and chloride. You calcium and magnesium are on the very low side, almost "naturally soft" water. The high sodium levels may not be beneficial to the ion exchange process as you would likely kick off as much calcium and magnesium as you would collect. Same goes for the iron in the water. unfortunately there are too many variables to say for sure what would happen in your specific condition but a softener is not really what is needed here.

Sodium and chloride in the water at these levels would almost be considered "brackish."

Iron reduction could be attempted with h2o2 and KL, but you may also consider a whole house RO. I am not a fan of whole house RO systems but in your circumstances it is an option that may be worth considering.

 

[mikebryan]

I'm not looking for a whole house RO, would a whole house filter type of system be better?

 

[ditttohead]

You have high levels of sodium and chloride, not much to do with that other than ignore it. A whole house iron reduction system may be effective. Oxidant injection and Katalox Light would be the most likely solution. Fairly simple and usually very effective.

 

[mikebryan]

can you give me some more details on these? I’m looking to get my TDS much lower and not have the sinks, tubs, etc be rust staining, I basically want city water quality at least which is what I'm coming from, is this possible with a well? Also would you recommend me having a RO for drinking water?

 

[Bannerman]

I’m looking to get my TDS much lower

That is why Ditttohead had recommended a whole house RO as it will reduce the levels of sodium and chloride.

A Katalox Light filter was recommended along with an oxidizer such as Hydrogen Peroxide injection, to reduce the iron content.

Many of us on this forum utilize an RO system for our drinking water.

 

[ditttohead]

City water quality vs. well... not sure what that means. Your well water is fairly poor. Many wells are better than some bottled water companies water. "City" water more commonly referred to as municipal water must meet many quality limits.

Here is a great chart of contaminants that must be regulated for a municipal water supply.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-06/documents/npwdr_complete_table.pdf

Reduction of TDS is typically achieved by RO, capacitive deionization (not recommended), Deionization (don't bother), or even NF. RO is the most common since it can reduce the vast majority of contaminants. NF would be the second choice but it is not very common for this application. Capacitive DI would be a great choice but the initial cost, maintenance, and the fact that they all have problems, the technology is still very young.

The KL system should reduce the iron to trace levels.

 

[Reach4]

It might be worthwhile to get a test on your post-softener water. Does your softener use salt in expected amounts? This high TDS thing is new to me.

I think a KL system would go before the softener.

Hard questions that come to mind:

1. given the high TDS, would that benefit more than usual from using a higher brine amount such as 15 or 20 pounds per cubic ft vs 8 or 10?
2. Would this be a case where a bigger injector would be beneficial so that the brining is stronger, even though it is shorter?
3. Is there some kind of accessible write-up on the reduced effectiveness of a softener due high TDS or sodium in the raw water?
4. Would attempting to use KCl be a pretty bad idea in the face of high TDS? I think NaCL is more active for regerating than KCl.

 

[ditttohead]

KL goes before a softener.
1. higher brine amount... this will have little affect. It is simply physics. To use a bad analogy, sodium is a cheerleader going up against a football player (calcium) in a game of king of the hill. The cheerleader is not going to be strong enough to kick the football player off, but several cheerleaders will. High sodium in the water will kick off some calcium. Considering he has almost no calcium or magnesium in the water, the softener really does very little except maybe attract some of the iron. Iron would be a pro football player...
2.A larger injector does not make the brine stronger, it just gives the salt less time to contact the resin bed. Injectors all draw similar amounts as a ratio. Go check the brine draw charts in the Fleck and Clack manuals, you will notice the draw/total ratios are always almost identical.
3. I have not really seen a write up that is accurate enough due to the infinite variables in water. kind of like air pressure in a tire, every situation would benefit from a different pressure. The stamp on the side of the tire is simply a safe place. I run my Jeep tires at 10 PSI over the stated amount on road, I find the noise drops significantly at 45 psi on the freeway, off road I run my Jeep tires at 9-10 PSI without beadlocks. Both of these ranges are well outside of the "recommended tire pressure". As you could imagine, a write up that could be peer reviewed and published would likely have to be 10,000-20,000 words long at minimum to even begin to adequately consider a small portion of the variables. Most articles are kept to less than 2,000-3,000 words. I have considered doing a write up on the subject but... what I wrote above adequately explains the premise I hope. And speaking of my jeep... For your entertainment..

My jeep is the blue/yellow Zombie Jeep. I put a huge scratch in my new rear tube fenders...
4. NaCL and KCL are very similar from a regnerating perspective. Both sodium and potassium have nearly identical properties. The "less efficient" issue has to do with the solubility at varying temperatures. It takes fairly warn water to get the same amount of KCl and NaCL. Since most areas are colder and a lot of companies dont properly adjust the salt settings properly, this causes the lower efficiency/higher hardness leakage.

hope this helps.

 

[mikebryan]

So other then a whole house RO what is the next best thing to lower TDS considering it's mostly sodium and chloride?
And are you thinking a water softener for my application is not worth it?

 

[ditttohead]

Noting to lower TDS, please read above, I thought I spelled it out in good detail.

Softeners will replace one type of tds with another but in your application this will only work marginally well and you really don't have a need for a softener considering you have such low levels of hardness anyway.

Removing sodium and chloride from water can be done through RO, Capacitive DI, maybe UF, but all of these technologies have to be considered carefully as they will all have their pros and cons. Capacitive DI is the most exciting but it is a technology that still has a lot of growing to do. I have been playing with them for over a decade and I still feel they are o where near ready to be released to the market but a lot of companies are already selling them. Every one we have tested has quickly failed or require so much costly maintenance that it is simply not worth it yet.

 

[mikebryan]

0.13 mg/L iron is not so high that a softener could not reasonably deal with it. 57.1 mg/L hardness is less than 4 grains. pH 8.1 is good.

It probably goes without saying, but is the staining rust colored or some other color?

Does the water to the toilet go through the softener? Is the piping to the toilet galvanized steel?

what would you recommend I get? And no it's not galvanized steel. And yes it's rust colored, but like you said I'm surprised with how low my total iron is.

 

[ditttohead]

Very low levels of iron will stain. Iron will also fluctuate greatly so your reading may have only been .13, but it would not surprise me to see it go from .1 to 1-2 ppm.

As to what we recommend, it really depends on what end result you want. If you want reduced spotting, then reducing TDS is needed. This can only be accomplished reasonably with expensive technologies. RO is the preferred method. Otherwise a simple iron reduction system ie:KL should help to mitigate some of the rust staining. No guarantees, but it will likely improve the water quality slightly. Your water is not good to begin with so any improvement would be noticeable.