Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by nofears67, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    I would go with a parallel installation for two reasons--less flow restriction and (I think) an incrementally better recovery speed--and that means slightly more hot water for the 20 minute 20 gpm design point. With a series installation the second heater will initially see hot incoming water and will fire later.
  2. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    Considering I'll be using a recirulation system, how would I plumb the return line into a parallel tank setup scenario using one recirculation pump?
  3. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    I don't see any problem with plumbing the return line, which I assume will be relatively small, into only one tank.
  4. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Would that 1/2 line have a check/backflow valve so that there is only one way for that return water to go?
  5. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    Yes, the pump comes equiped with a check valve.
  6. tuffy

    tuffy New Member

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    Have you thought about one quick recovery water heater and then have storage tanks to give you capacity. Run a circulator between them to keep the water hot. It seems your looking more for capacity to handle the occasional high volume shower than you are looking for sustained fast recovery like a commercial kitchen would require. Just a thought :)
  7. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    Now that I have revised the max gpm down to 20 gpm will a Clack valve larger than 1.25" be necessary? I do not want to lose pressure through the units.

    I also just noticed that the BW 100 gal tank heater has inlet/outlet piping of 1.25". So considering this should the two tanks still be plumbed in parallel?

    Thanks!
  8. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Any valve, even the 1.5", will have some pressure loss but I think the 1.25" would be satisfactory.

    I still see the same advantages to plumbing them in parallel and don't really see a downside.
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2010
  9. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    I couldn't find pressure loss/flow charts on the Clack website to see how much pressure loss should be seen at 20 gpm with either the 1.25 or 1.5" valves but I figured the 1.5" would induce less psi loss than the 1.25".
  10. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Would the plumbing be a 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 main line from the pressure tank through the system and then to the water heater as well as the main run through the house?

    If the plumbing is going to be 1" why get a valve larger than that? if the plumbing is going to be 1 1/2 why do a smaller valve?

    try and match the valve with the pipe size that is going to be used.
  11. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    I was planning either a 1.25 or 1.5" trunk line from the two tanks to the furthest bathrooms and then a 0.5" return line back to tank #1. It is common practice in irrigation to increase the line size after the point of connection (meter/backflow) or other pressure losing device in order to further reduce friction/line losses throughout the system. I want to use a softener valve that will induce the least pressure loss at the max flow rate of 20 gpm (as well as during normal use...~10 gpm) and then possibly "bush" up to the next size line. I would only do this if the 1.25" valve was sufficient, then run an 1.5" line to the bathrooms. If I go with an 1.5" softener valve then I will stick with a 1.5" trunk to the bathrooms as there is little friction loss in an 1.5" line in 100 foot of run at 20 gpm.
  12. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    With that in mind go with the 1.5 pipe.
    Friction loss SCH 40 PVC for 20gpm with 1.25 20gpm per 100 feet =6
    Friction loss SCH 40 PVC for 20gpm with 1.50 20gpm per 100 feet =2.8

    Less friction loss with the .25 larger pipe, I know that you are using copper and the true numbers are different, but the difference between sizes is not.
  13. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    186
    My thoughts exactly.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Having sized a lot of water treatment equipment over the years for the peak demand you have been talking about, and then selling that equipment all over the country for the last 7 yrs to customers that I am sure would tell me of problems or post them in my customer comments forum if there were any, you are going at this all wrong.

    First, you aren't installing just a control valve. You are installing a whole softener.

    Y'all go on about what size valve because Bob999 doesn't know how to size a softener and yet sounds as if he does and says I'm wrong about the 1" Clack valve because he read something here or there... problem is he doesn't understand what he read or how to use it and I'm not going to educate him anymore.

    You need a softener with a constant SFR gpm higher than your peak demand gpm. The constant SFR is dictated/controlled only by the volume of resin in the softener (and not using the figures Bob gets off a resin spec sheet).

    The volume of resin dictates the size of the resin tank that must be used and, the size of the tank dictates the control valve that can or can not be used. That means that you do not need the ID of the porting of the control valve to match the ID of the plumbing (although a code will call for no reduction of the plumbing connectors). All that also means the distributor tube ID doesn't have to match the porting of the control valve or the ID of the plumbing.

    You are seriously oversizing the ID of the plumbing; from what I recall of all that has been said here, 1" would be sufficient now.

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The flow rate from an open ended 100' of 3/4" pipe at 50 psi is 17.5 gpm, for 1", it is 37 gpm. At 30 psi, 3/4" is 14 gpm and 1" is 28 gpm. Of course you will not get that much flow if you have the same ID pipe because your plumbing includes tees and elbows and valves which cause pressure losses and the fixture risers are much smaller ID than the pipe feeding them.

    Are you going to have a 1.25" or 1.5" shower valve or shower head/body sprays? I think not, most likely, at best you'll have a 3/4" and 1/2".
    [/FONT]
    You will not notice a pressure loss with a correctly sized softener and for up to a 21" tank (7.5 cuft) a Clack WS-1 will work just fine.
  15. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Gary, You really need to get your facts straight if you are going to post. What you have written above is simply wrong -- if you believe it to be true you need to post the facts/explanation to demonstrate why it is true.

    First I never said you were "wrong" about the 1" Clack valve. What I did post was: "According to the Specifications for the Clack valve (http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm) (click on Control valve and pick the valve of interest) The 1" Clack valve alone will cause a 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute flow while in service. In my opinion if you go with a 1" valve you will never see 44 gallons per minute flow in your system. If you really want a flow of 44 gallons per minute you will need a 1.5 inch valve."

    I have no idea what you are referring to when you post that "problem is he doesn't understand what he read or how to use it ". If you are going to post statements like that you have an obligation to back it up with facts!
  16. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

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    You can not get more water flow out of a unit than the distributor will allow. It does not matter if you have a 2" valve, 1.5" or a 1" valve, if the distributor is only 1", they flow will not be greater than the 1" can handle.
  17. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Location:
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    Clack lists a 15lb service pressure drop for all three valves
    The 1" flows 27 gpm, the 1.25 flows 34 gpm and the 1.50 flows 60 gpm.

    If I recall correctly the cold water supply piping is 1 1/2 which by code dictates an 1 1/2 valve body. I also remember the SFU being around 44 gpm which is with both mega showers running at the same time, full bore. Admittedly that scenario is probably the exception to the rule but it may happen occasionally. So the question is whether or not you go with a smaller valve and unit and occasional get some amount of hard water through the system or you go with a 1 1/2 valve and size for maximum volume.
  18. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    The other side of the coin with the larger unit is that it is more likely to not see the low flow rate of water, ie 1.5 gpm and lower may not be seen by the meter, what ever meter is used.

    Now if one is Always Going to be using 2+gpm then great... but if there is low usage or ice makers ro systems... then that larger meter is not going to see it.

    With that much resin and low flow there are other challenges that will come into the picture, channeling will be the biggest and most likely one to happen, not just once but a lot.

    Big units are often times on water that is Always Flowing and never stopping.
  19. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Location:
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    Absolutely, which is yet another snafu in this whole mega shower thing. To have to size both filtration and then water heating for a single (ok 2 single) shower loads is going to be wasteful, expensive and possibly problematic as well. the alternative might be to use 2 separate softeners, one for the main house and one for the showers.
  20. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Or to use the 2 softener idea, just use them in the first in and last out or the balanced header so that the meters see the lower flow and there is less challening , and one still gets the flow rate after the treatment system.
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