Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by nofears67, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    186
    Gary,

    We have discussed my new home in depth in other threads in regards to my well and it producing hard water. We spoke on the phone a few months ago regarding my anticipated domestic demands.

    Below is what you suggested based on a hardness of 340 ppm (20 grains):
    Clack WS-1 (1") control valve w/1.25" plumbing.
    4 cu ft resin tank

    My questions are...
    How much regular maintenance should I anticipate with a system of this size?
    How often would I need to service the valve?
    How hard is it to maintain the system?

    I am extremely handy and love working on things but have kind of a bad back and cannot lift heavy items on a regular basis. Is there a lot of heavy lifting involved when performing regular maintenance and/or adding salt?

    Thanks
  2. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Properly installed, you put salt in it and that's about it. It should not need anything for years.
  3. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

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    Location:
    Ocala, Fl
    A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.
  4. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    Not if there is 9 people in the house and there is 5 bathrooms with a pump that is doing 20+gpm..
  5. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    The reason for the large system was due to the two high performance showers I have designed for my home. The master bath has the ability to demand 29 gpm if all heads were active and bath #2 can demand 15 gpm on it's own with all heads running. It is very likely that both showers will be used at the same time and I have configured both to individually run enough minimum gpm to keep my pump from cycling (above 5 gpm flow).

    I plan to run min 1.25" plumbing from the two HP water heaters in the garage to these bathrooms as well as a dedicated 0.5" hot water return line.

    The home is served by a well capable of 50 gpm flows and will have a 2" PVC line running into the home and soft water system.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2010
  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That's because I keep telling you that you don't know how to size softeners and you just go on'n on thinking I'm wrong.
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If you actually mean to run both showers at the same time (which may be a typo above), then you need a constant SFR gpm of more than 44 gpm, and if so then you need a larger than 4 cuft softener with its 24-25 gpm constant Service Flow Rating.
  8. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    4 cubic foot system will work for the 44gpm.

    As the 4 cubic foot could handle 47/64gpm, but the valve would have to be 2"

    How often again would the high flow rate be reached? 2 minutes every 5 years?

    Another way of doing this would be to split the 4 cubic into 2 2cubic foot units with a first in and last out so that the low end flow is covered and the high end flow is also covered.

    If one goes to big then the slippage or leakage can and will take place when only 1-3gpm is used, 2 smaller units would not only see the lower flow better, but also cut down on the slippage or leakage.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  9. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Perhaps SST-60 resin would provide benefit in such a situation. The Manufacturer specs SST-60 at 7.5 gal/cubic foot--50% greater than the 5 gal/cubic foot for standard resin.
  10. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Ocala, Fl
    The water can only flow as fast as the valve will allow. Adding extra resin will not bring up the flow rate. Just because you size you unit to industrial standards and I don't, does not make me wrong.
  11. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    186
    No, that wasn't a typo...there WILL be times where both showers are running at the same time, likely even both at full bore, not that often have you, but it will happen occassionaly (once every week or two). I guess the big thing would be that the valve does not create too much friction loss (psi drop) or limit the ability of the water to flow at possilble full bore to both performance showers.
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi. That means it can be used on a tank up to and including a 21" diameter and that makes a 7.5 cuft softener. The 27 gpm means backwash flow gpm, it has nothing to do with the constant SFR gpm of the softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates what control is needed to successfully backwash that volume of resin.

    So you don't need a larger control valve. And if you did you'd go to the 1.25" or 1.5", not a 2".

    The constant SFR gpm of a softener is controlled by the volume of resin in the tank, not the control valve.

    And as long as the constant SFR of the volume of resin is higher than the peak demand gpm, your 44 gpm, you can expect 0 gpg soft water. As soon as the peak demand gpm exceeds the constant SFR gpm, you get some of the hardness through the resin/softener. I am not talking about 44 gpm at 15 psi pressure loss or a 67 gpm max flow rate (@ 15 or 25 psi pressure loss. I am talking about the constant service flow rating of the volume of resin.

    If you don't mind getting hard water through the softener when both showers are running at full bore, you don't need a larger than 4.0 softener but, both showers totaling 44 gpm is all but 100% more than the constant SFR 24-25 gpm of a 4.0 cuft so the amount of hardness breakthrough should be close to 100% of your hardness gpg content. In other words, no softening until you turn a shower off or shut off the body sprays in one. Most of the water being used in the showers will be hot water meaning that any hardness leakage goes into the water heaters to cause scale build up. Any scale formation in the heaters should be dissolved over time but that means all hot water in the house will be hard until the scale is all gone; which may take a couple days.
  13. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    ok, just so I have this straight...if I have 65psi entering the home what psi should I expect in the showers after this water goes thru the softening system and two water heaters and about 100' of 1.25" copper?
  14. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

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    There are going to be other things that come into dropping psi, elbows, unions , if the heaters have 3/4 inlet outlets, it is not just the system valve that is/will drop the psi on the flow rate.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Sized correctly you won't know the softener is there, but I can't tell you how many psi you'll have at the showers. That depends on how many tees, elbows, valves you have and if you are running water and how much before the end of the 100' run etc..

    I can also tell you that the higher psi you run, the higher the pressure losses in the system and, the sooner the pressure tank empties causing the pump to come on.
  16. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Location:
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    According to the Specifications for the Clack valve (http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm) (click on Control valve and pick the valve of interest) The 1" Clack valve alone will cause a 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute flow while in service. In my opinion if you go with a 1" valve you will never see 44 gallons per minute flow in your system. If you really want a flow of 44 gallons per minute you will need a 1.5 inch valve.
  17. nofears67

    nofears67 New Member

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    186
    Can water heaters be configured with inlets/outlets larger than 3/4" ? I think my heaters are going to be the bottleneck, and maybe I should go with the 1.5" valve.
  18. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Location:
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    You can get large commercial water heaters but the operating cost would probably be prohibitive. I have not run the numbers but @44 gpm, that's a lot of flow. Is the house piping ( Main ) and the branch going to these showers big enough to handle that flow at reasonable pressure? You are going to experience pressure loss through every device on the system. this whole thing seems like a lot of trouble to go through to take a shower. Have you broken down the cost per session yet :)
  19. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

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    Location:
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    In order to get 44 gpm of warm/hot water for any length of time you will need either multiple home water heaters or a commercial water heater. In just 10 minutes you will use 440 gallons of water and perhaps 2/3 (approximately 300 gallons) will be from the water heater. For example, you would need 4 80 gallon heaters to provide 10 minutes of use and the user would almost certainly have cool water in the last few minutes.
  20. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Bob, thanks for doing the math :)

    The water police will be all over this thread :)
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