Smoke Test: no smoke, but no go...

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Texas Wellman

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#1) I see you have the hardware for a simple pump. You should have just saved the money from the simple pump (if you have one) and bought either a SQF Grundfos or an SQ grundfos (they make one in 110V with no start surge load).

#2) Where the heck is the drop pipe for your pump. It looks like it's hanging from the wires? Or do you have a pitless installed?
 

SteveMitty79

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Are you running that generator at 3600 RPM ?

Those voltage measurements do seem low for some reason.

The genny seems to be at speed. The voltage across both hots at the switch box before the fuses and before the control box is 258VAC.
 

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I did some searching and found a side by side comparison of this control box in both 110 and 220 on a RainFlo pdf. It looks like they put the 110 diagram inside the cover of the 220.

The wiring route is identical on both, except the neutral is substituted for L2 in the 220, confirming my installation. I took pics of the Flotec wire splicing and confirmed my colors are correct to the diagram. While this setup trips the breaker after ten or so seconds, it seems by all accounts correct and leads me to believe there is a problem at the motor.

Both equipment rentals don't have a 10k genny, so I'd have to go with a bobcat welder with 10k or diesel 25k and I don't want to throw away good money after bad to confirm what I believe is a dog of a pump that draws too many amps.

If I pull this thing, and I'm not scared to, does that seem the next logical step and test it topside?

RainFlo-Pump-Installation-Instructions.pdf.jpg


http://www.rainharvest.com/info/rainflo/RainFlo-Pump-Installation-Instructions.pdf
 

SteveMitty79

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#1) I see you have the hardware for a simple pump. You should have just saved the money from the simple pump (if you have one) and bought either a SQF Grundfos or an SQ grundfos (they make one in 110V with no start surge load).

#2) Where the heck is the drop pipe for your pump. It looks like it's hanging from the wires? Or do you have a pitless installed?


Don't know about the Grundfos. I've had the Simple Pump with handle and DC motor for several years and run it off my golfcart, which is solar. It's low capacity and we've finally outgrown it. It's given me problems recently losing capacity, so I decided to install this 220 pump while I troubleshoot it.

I believe I made a poor choice going with this generic Chinese pump off eBay. Although I perused the pump feedback diligently, it doesn't reflect anything after 30 days. I recently found a similar pump sold as Hallmark and dreaded reading the bad reviews how many failed after a short time and some immediately.

One review that sticks in my craw stated their reluctance when there was no information about who manufactured the pump other than generic specs. Same with mine. I suppose this is a lesson learned.

The problem is I've spend good money and had the same experience with other equipment. Even when you spend more, you don't necessarily get what you pay for.

Oddly enough, this same pump I bought is selling for a grand on eBay with another seller. I hope some poor person doesn't bite that hook. That would be tragic. I'm rambling. Time for coffee.

Oh yeah, I installed a pitless. Ties into the utility hydrant right next to the casing. Hanging off the wires, now that'd be something.
 
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DonL

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The genny seems to be at speed. The voltage across both hots at the switch box before the fuses and before the control box is 258VAC.

If that is the case then you have a lot of voltage drop in that Box.

Either the switch or safety has a voltage drop across it.

Maybe a bad solder joint under the heat shrink.

Also 258V seems high. The gen motor could be running to fast.
 

DonL

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#1) I see you have the hardware for a simple pump. You should have just saved the money from the simple pump (if you have one) and bought either a SQF Grundfos or an SQ grundfos (they make one in 110V with no start surge load).


For off Grid that makes a lot of sense.
 

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If that is the case then you have a lot of voltage drop in that Box.

Either the switch or safety has a voltage drop across it.

Maybe a bad solder joint under the heat shrink.

Also 258V seems high. The gen motor could be running to fast.

Good point. I'll have to check those crimp connections. I eliminated the terminal strip in the control box. That's why I called it a plastic piece of crap. I wouldn't use that for an automotive application, much less a 220. The screws were so small, a few punctured the soldered wire end clean through. I tugged on them and noticed a few were loose even though the screws were set. And the capacitor wire didn't even have solder and the screw tightened down on a few strands and balled the rest up on the side. Pathetic. Freaking Chinese quality control.

Can't imagine what it looks like inside the motor.

IMG_4585.jpg
 
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SteveMitty79

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If that is the case then you have a lot of voltage drop in that Box.

Either the switch or safety has a voltage drop across it.

Maybe a bad solder joint under the heat shrink.

Also 258V seems high. The gen motor could be running to fast.

OK, so I tested the voltage across both hots in the fused switch box. Both in front and behind the fuses and the voltage was constant at 258VAC. This switch of course was on, but the control box switch was off.

Then I peeled back the protectors on the spades for the double pole switch in the control box and powered it and immediately noticed a voltage drop on both sides of that switch. It was 178VAC.

Oddly enough I thought to try both sides of the fused switch and lo and behold, same thing. Voltage drop to 178VAC.

Could it be since L2 is feeding the capacitor that when it's powered, it's causing the drop?
 
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Reach4

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OK, so I tested the voltage across both hots in the fused switch box. Both in front and behind the fuses and the voltage was constant at 258VAC.

Then I peeled back the protectors on the spades for the double pole switch in the control box and immediately noticed a voltage drop on both sides of that switch. It was 178VAC.
Are those voltages being measured without throwing a switch or breaker? It sounds as if you are saying that the generator is supplying 256 volts as measured between the two fuses at the same time that you measure 178 volts between the L1...L2 terminals. But I feel pretty sure that you are not saying that, because that would be very informative and diagnostic and easy to fix.
 

DonL

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L1 or L2 should not mater, they just need to be 180 deg out of phase. That is all that the pump sees, or cares about.

What does mater, is the leg that you share with the cap winding.

Only one winding should be drawing current through the Cap. The other winding shared with the cap connects directly to line. If that voltage drops the line voltage is dropping.
 

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Are those voltages being measured without throwing a switch or breaker? It sounds as if you are saying that the generator is supplying 256 volts as measured between the two fuses at the same time that you measure 178 volts between the L1...L2 terminals. But I feel pretty sure that you are not saying that, because that would be very informative and diagnostic and easy to fix.

No. I powered the fused switch and the control box switch is off, no load. I want to test in front and behind the fuses to make sure they are not a problem. The voltage across both hots in the fused switch box is 258v. The voltage is the same to the control box switch that is off.

When I throw and power the control box switch, the voltage immediately drops on both that switch and back at the fused switch. It all drops to 178v.

Could it be that control box switch is the problem here? Could I just bypass that to test that theory and see voltages then? I could just use the fused switch as power.

If I am still confusing the issue, I can make a short vid of what I did.
 

Reach4

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That is clear without a video. With no power draw, the generator puts out 265 volts. With the pump as a load, the generator is dragged down to 178 volts. The pump does not start on 178 volts. It is unknown if it would start on 210 volts.
 

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That is clear without a video. With no power draw, the generator puts out 265 volts. With the pump as a load, the generator is dragged down to 178 volts. The pump does not start on 178 volts. It is unknown if it would start on 210 volts.

OK, so are you saying it's less or more likely to start at 210 volts?

I was thinking to find my kill-o-watt and plug it in to the 110 genny receptacle and check the Hz while adjusting the genny governor idle no-load speed to something more tolerable. I have to see if it has a single or dual adjustment which might be tricky.
 

Reach4

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I am saying that a working system would be expected to start at 210 volts -- maybe less. At this point we don't know if the problem is just a generator that cannot produce the needed power, or if the pump is not going to work even with proper power, or both.

Too bad the pump is hard to pull. Otherwise you could take it to a friends's house that would let you try the pump from commercial power while the pump sat in a trash can lined with a big trash bag and filled with water. If you did that and the pump did not work, you would have had to pull the pump anyway. If it did work, then you would know that a significantly bigger generator would work. I suspect with different generators generators, there can be a significant difference in how they can start a big pump even if they have the same ratings.

Texas Wellman recently mentioned using Lorentz pumps with solar panels. https://www.lorentz.de/en/products/submersible-solar-pumps.html That's gotta be big bucks though.
 

SteveMitty79

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I am saying that a working system would be expected to start at 210 volts -- maybe less. At this point we don't know if the problem is just a generator that cannot produce the needed power, or if the pump is not going to work even with proper power, or both.

Too bad the pump is hard to pull. Otherwise you could take it to a friends's house that would let you try the pump from commercial power while the pump sat in a trash can lined with a big trash bag and filled with water. If you did that and the pump did not work, you would have had to pull the pump anyway. If it did work, then you would know that a significantly bigger generator would work. I suspect with different generators generators, there can be a significant difference in how they can start a big pump even if they have the same ratings.

Texas Wellman recently mentioned using Lorentz pumps with solar panels. https://www.lorentz.de/en/products/submersible-solar-pumps.html That's gotta be big bucks though.

Even if it does operate on a bigger genny, it would be a gas hog. Especially in light the of the efficiency of that 1hp v series you posted. Same output, half the power.

I don't mind running it occasionally with my current genny which is brand new. I would at least expect by the advice of others here that it would turn and give me some water.

That said, I guess I will pull this thing unless someone has an epiphany about it real soon.

I just don't know what else to try.

As an afterthought, it is my fault for not testing it above ground. I had that in mind, but when I started, I just wanted to get the thing in the hole and pumping.
 
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DonL

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Are you sure you do not have a big voltage drop on your wires and test setup ?

If your meter reads frequency you can check the generator speed. If the regulator is working it should stay close to 60 hz. Voltage 240 Max.

Testing is good before you put it in the hole to deep. Kind of late now that you are already screwed. :eek:

Good Luck.
 

SteveMitty79

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Are you sure you do not have a big voltage drop on your wires and test setup .

The cord is about 20 feet and 12ga. The pump wire is 250' and 12ga. I believe the wiring in the control box is 14ga. Do you think that is responsible for such a drop?

I've checked all the connections and they are tight.

The only thing I would do is simply take out the control box and wire it off the switch box with the capacitor. The circuit breaker on the genny has been tripping rather than the single pole CB on the control box.

What do you think? That would eliminate any wiring or component defect the box has.
 

Reach4

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You could check for that by checking the voltage at the generator while the pump is "on". It seems unlikely that the 20 feet of cord is the problem.
 

SteveMitty79

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That does mater, is the leg that you share with the cap winding.

Only one winding should be drawing current through the Cap. The other winding shared with the cap connects directly to line. If that voltage drops the line voltage is dropping.

That's what's confusing to me. Since there is no relay in the control box, it must be built into the motor?

Then either way, there is momentary voltage through the capacitor leg and then when it's up to speed, there should be none and switches back over to hot to run?
 

DonL

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That's what's confusing to me. Since there is no relay in the control box, it must be built into the motor?

Then either way, there is momentary voltage through the capacitor leg and then when it's up to speed, there should be none and switches back over to hot to run?

It is really hard to tell, But I did not see a switch in the motor breakdown or parts list.

One thing you may be able to try, Is to disconnect that cap after the motor starts, If it is really starting.

If that works you can add a start relay, Or just add a momentary start button that puts the cap in circuit.

I would not give up, I never do once I get started. I will use bailing wire if needed.:eek:

Good Luck.
 
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