Smoke detecters

[Cwhyu2]

Main panel meter combo install,

 

[JWelectric]

www.ajfire.org/uploads/smoke_alarm_requirments.pdf
I have not read it yet but it has all 50 states in it.

Nothing in this will be enforceable for a code official. The only thing that matters is what is written in the codes adopted in your area. Instead of looking at this type of web page you would be better advised to talk to your local code enforcement official.

I can tell you with complete confidence that installing smoke alarms in each unit supplied by the house panel is a NEC violation.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Cwhyu2]

Nothing in this will be enforceable for a code official. The only thing that matters is what is written in the codes adopted in your area. Instead of looking at this type of web page you would be better advised to talk to your local code enforcement official.

I can tell you with complete confidence that installing smoke alarms in each unit supplied by the house panel is a NEC violation.

Thank you JW I will do that.

 

[hj]

quote; detection devices are not interconnected and must have a control panel.

They ARE "interconnected" but each one has a "address" and the control panel is usually "polling" them to check their status.

 

[hj]

quote;
installing smoke alarms in each unit supplied by the house panel is a NEC violation.

Let us know what you find out, because this statement, if true, would be one of the most illogical requirements I have ever heard.

 

[Jadnashua]

If I'm understanding this properly, when dealing with prime power - 120vac or higher, ALL of it must be controlled to the unit from its panel. But, low voltage devices are independent of that, and are the way to go if you need full building protection, since that CAN be run to multiple units. That could be both a detector and/or an alarm. The fire control panel would then decide if it needed to alert the whole building or not.

 

[JWelectric]

quote; detection devices are not interconnected and must have a control panel.

They ARE "interconnected" but each one has a "address" and the control panel is usually "polling" them to check their status.

Yes you are correct, my bad

 

[Cwhyu2]

quote;
installing smoke alarms in each unit supplied by the house panel is a NEC violation.

Let us know what you find out, because this statement, if true, would be one of the most illogical requirements I have ever heard.

I will, tried calling him today but he is out of town.

 

[Cwhyu2]

Okay here is how my conversation went both the electrical inspector and the building and planning department, according to their code the smoke alarms that are hard wired should be connected to the house panel and that they are interconnected through out the whole building on a dedicated circuit.
That is the what I am going to do. Because that's the way they want it done.

 

[JWelectric]

Where more than one building
or other structure is on the same property and under
single management, each additional building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load
side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied
by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a
multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

Who cares what they want to see all that matters is what the code says. Even if the inspector signs off on an installation the installer is still liable for the installation

 

[Cwhyu2]

Where more than one building
or other structure is on the same property and under
single management, each additional building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load
side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied
by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a
multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

Who cares what they want to see all that matters is what the code says. Even if the inspector signs off on an installation the installer is still liable for the installation

Ah, JW this is one building with 3 small units one above the other.

 

[JWelectric]

Ah, JW this is one building with 3 small units one above the other.

Each unit being a structure due to the required fire rating then only one feeder or one branch circuit is allowed to serve any one unit. Each unit will have a different address such as street number and A, B or C.
The only other way around this is to have one panel serve all the units

 

[Cwhyu2]

Each unit being a structure due to the required fire rating then only one feeder or one branch circuit is allowed to serve any one unit. Each unit will have a different address such as street number and A, B or C.
The only other way around this is to have one panel serve all the units

I understand, but this an in house only system
and not connected to any fire alarm control that would send a signal to 911 so the address issue is moot.

 

[Jadnashua]

The point to the code is that any acv input in a 'unit' must be controlled by its individual power panel. Running 120vac from a main panel into individual units fails that code. Look at it this way, you want to do some work, you shut off your main breaker, then get electrocuted trying to change out your smoke detector! Logic would tell you, my panel's main breaker is off, everything in my unit is now without power. This isn't a code violation if you're feeding a low-voltage circuit, but typical smoke detectors rely on 120vac (with battery backup).

Multifamily dwellings typically require fire walls and in many circumstances, are treated as stand-alone units. Then, there are some things that only apply to them as multi-family. It can get complicated quickly. WHere I live, electrical and plumbing on a multifamily dwelling can only be done by someone with a license, but in a single family unit, the homeowner can do work, in either case, a permit and inspection is required, though.

Unless there's an amendment to the national code (and that generally can only be more restrictive, not less), it sounds like the inspectors may have the intent correct, but not the implementation.

 

[Cwhyu2]

Thanks, Jim that clarifies a lot of questions.

 

[Cwhyu2]

And JW thanks for all your help.

 

[JWelectric]

Ah, JW this is one building with 3 small units one above the other.

Each unit being a structure due to the required fire rating then only one feeder or one branch circuit is allowed to serve any one unit. Each unit will have a different address such as street number and A, B or

I understand, but this an in house only system
and not connected to any fire alarm control that would send a signal to 911 so the address issue is moot.

The code reference I posted is dealing with the three units, the three address, not the calling 911.

 

[hj]

This weekend, there was situation where a fire started in an apartment while the occupants were away. The only thing that prevented a conflagration was that the neighbors heard the smoke alarms and called the fire department. IF the alarms had been interconnected ALL the units would have been alerted and the blaze could have been detected and extinguished sooner.

 

[Jadnashua]

The solution to that that does not conflict with the electrical code would be to use a commercial style alarm system and run the smoke detectors on low-voltage. Probably something that should be required, and maybe is on larger complexes. It's the same problem with say buildings in a city that either have no or very little distance between them...they are not interconnected, so if your neighbor's house or business burns down while they are away, you may not know as early as if the smoke detectors were all interconnected. THat's one reason why multifamily dwellings are required to have fire walls so you have time to get out.

You could carry that argument to many things...the one out of million that lived after a car accident because they didn't have their seatbelt on verses the other 999,999 that lived doesn't mean you should not wear your seatbelt. The greater good is to not have prime power in your facility when you turn your main breaker off.

 

[hj]

IT would more likely be in the "fire underwriter's code" than the NEC.