Slow leak Different location

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noob666

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Toilet leak 001.jpg

Installed a new toilet recently and have had some leaking issues. Please note the 2 pieces of tissue. Initially it would leak around where the bolt was. Redid wax ring and now it leaks on a different spot as shown in the picture. I did check for cracks on the bottom of the toilet before redoing the wax ring. Should I go for a 3rd time lucky? Or did I do something wrong?
 
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Dj2

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Check the height of the floor flange. If a bit too low, you many need a couple of rings.
Also, look into SANI-SEAL instead of wax rings.
 

noob666

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Could I have a crack some where on the bottom I couldn't see? I put some food coloring and flushed a few times. Also when the toilet above me is flushed I can see the water in the bowl move a bit and level goes down a bit.
 

Reach4

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The water moving a bit when the toilet above is flushed is not a problem. It would indicate to me the venting is not perfect but not bad.

Regarding your crack theory, I don't know. I would think that DJ2's theory will hold water.
 

noob666

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When the flange is level with the floor. When I put the toilet with the wax ring on there was about an iphone's gap before pushing down on it. I get mixed reactions on the saniseal. There is a hint of color on the tissue so obviously somethings not sealed right. I will try the saniseal if I can find one.
 

WJcandee

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Hard to figure out how a flush from the toilet upstairs would cause the bowl water here to move, unless there is a seal. (Well, I guess the porcelain being sealed against the floor could cause something of a vaccuum, but still...) And even with no wax ring whatsoever, if the toilet is properly-positioned above the closet bend, you shouldn't get much if any leakage -- the stuff should be shooting down the drain, with only a little splash or whatever leaking out.

That said, I would do the simple/cheap fix first. Pull it up. Put two rings on the floor (one without a plastic funnel on the bottom, and either another no-funnel ring above it or one with a funnel; never two with funnels; the funnel can help hold the upper ring in place. Alternative is a #10 extra-thick ring. Another alternative is the Sani-Seal. Put the toilet down carefully and vertically on top of the rings. Push straight down, smushing it down. You can feel the wax compress. It might smush a little through the holes for the closet bolts. That's fine. Don't shift it around because wax doesn't bounce back to fill gaps.

If this doesn't solve the problem, then if it is a two-piece I would check the tank-to-bowl connection for leaks; it could be that that water is dribbling down and around inside. Unlikely, but one rule of construction is that if you see water coming out somewhere, it often isn't a clear indication of where it's coming from. Water has a way of flowing around and out in unexpected places. (I traced water in a minimally-occupied condo structure once that was coming out the ceiling of the lobby. It started twenty floors up and way across the floor plate where a washer connection had been left flowing on the floor. [The story behind how that happened was classic.] The water went through undocumented slab penetrations, across walls, down the curtain wall, back onto floor, through other improperly-executed slab penetrations and ultimately out the lobby ceiling.)

After that, I would suspect a crack.

Let us know how it turns out.
 
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Terry

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Also when the toilet above me is flushed I can see the water in the bowl move a bit and level goes down a bit.

That's the plumbing in the wall and floor.
If a column of air is pushed up the trap arm, it can force the water in the bowl upward, and then some will slosh down the drain.
 

Terry

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I see it quite often. I depends on how it was plumbed. Without doing an X-Ray of the building you won't know how.

An upstairs toilet being flushed, depending on how the "system" is laid out, can push the water level up in the bowl in the basement, which is automatic for it then losing that water that surged up.

The old plumbing codes don't work very well for toilets that flush quickly. I don't do as much rough-in as I used to. I used to rough in five homes a week. I was younger then.
Knowing how plumbing fixtures have changed since that time in the 70's and 80's, I would now re-think a lot of the acceptable layouts that were allowed and are still allowed now.
I would never use a double fixture fitting for back to back toilets.
I would never stack toilets floor to floor without proper venting to separate the two.

For starters. If you have a bowl that leaks water at the floor, and you didn't get compression when the bowl was set. Pull it up, and double wax it. Then report back.
95% of our installs "require" two wax seals.
 
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WJcandee

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That's a great explanation. Thanks. What I was curious about was something different: I guess what I am trying to say is that if there is an air gap between the toilet outlet and the flange because of an insufficient wax seal, as we seem to think is the case here, how could that hydrodynamic principle act upon this particular bowl? I was thinking that if there was water movement in the bowl, it tended to imply that there was at least some measure of seal between the toilet outlet and the floor flange.
 

noob666

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Ok, here's a bit of an update. Before leaving my house before work, I placed some fresh pieces of tissue. Initially I could see just a bit of wetness. Came back after work and the pieces of tissue were bone dry. Flushed it a few times and didn't see any water seep into the tissue. As for determining whether to use 2 wax rings I have to ask what kind of gap. Because when I place the toilet with the wax ring on it on the flange I have a DVD/iphones gap before I press down on it. After I have pressed down on it there is any where from a credit cards gap close to the bolts to none at all. I went to a home depot to look for a saniseal and couldn't find one. Asked their clerk and was told they are not recommended, and was told a properly done wax ring or rings will last a lifetime, went to a local hardware store later and was told something similar. Clerk also went on to tell me to warm up the wax ring by putting it over a heating vent before applying. Then when I do apply to bottom of toilet press it on really good so that you cinch it down on all the contours as they are not all flat. Come to think of it this makes sense as I remember seeing a bit of a contour when I applied the wax ring. So was not pressing the wax ring on to the bottom of the toilet before setting on flange my problem? Are these saniseals too new for them to be recomended. How much of a gap should there be between floor and toilet before you press down on it?
 

WJcandee

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We generally consider the Aprons at the Home Depot to be very inconsistent in terms of whether anything they say is worth a crap.

The Sani-Seal is fine. It is definitely not "not recommended". In fact, many Home Depots carry it. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbrande...eal-Universal-Fit-BL01/203564758#.UpMd58Ssim4 Apparently it is "not recommended" at your local home depot not because it sucks but because they don't carry it.

Wax seals do not last a lifetime. Some last a long time, some do not. The toilet in my city apartment was installed in 1986, and this year it needed to be reset with a new wax seal because I suddenly could smell a strong odor sewer gas in my bathroom. Maintenance reset the toilet in new wax and voila, problem solved.

Plumbers don't try to stick the wax seal to the bottom of the toilet. They put it on the floor (i.e. on the flange), and put a second one on top if they need to, or use a thick #10 wax ring if they need to.

You don't need to heat the wax ring. If it's at room temp it's fine. If you left it outside in the car overnight in North Dakota in the winter, then I would let it rise to room temp inside the house before use. Otherwise, that's just one more piece of bad advice from an Apron.

PS The gap we are talking about is between the flange and the bottom of the toilet where the wax will touch the toilet. Not between the lip of the toilet and the floor, where you are sliding your tissue. That's a gap you seal with Polyseamseal after you are sure that the flange and toilet bottom are sealing. If you start with a phone-width gap visible between the toilet lip and the floor and then smush the toilet down onto the wax and the visible gap between toilet and floor reduces, then you probably have a good seal between toilet and flange. But more is better with wax, so a thick wax ring probably wouldn't hurt. Or the Sani-Seal.
 
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noob666

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Left it for 2 days, had no seepage and this morning I had some, seems strange to me. Why isn't it leaking all the time? With the sani seal, homedepot.com sells it but homedepot.ca where I am does not. I bought an extra thick wax ring. This is what my flange looks like. I think its a lead liner/sleeve in a cast iron pipe.today

003.jpg
 
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