Slip Lining for house main

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by cadillac1960, Oct 3, 2013.

  1. cadillac1960

    cadillac1960 New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Kauai
    Hi all and thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this project for me. First let me state that I realize this is a HUGE project, but I do have some professional contractor help at my disposal once we get down to getting things done (with every piece of equipment I will need at little to no cost) and pro guidance on using it right. That said, these "helpers" are very busy people and I want to have as much knowledge and be as prepared as possible for when that time comes. Here goes.

    Our house is located (as the pipe flows) about 1200' from the street. The meter is at the street location. It is a subdivision and each properties water lines run next to each other from the street until they turn off to each residence. Our residence was built and occupied as of 1992. Location is Kauai, Hawaii. Whoever did the original install of the main lines to each property did some things wrong (probably more than I will ever know) and as a result, we have had 3 leaks in that line coming up to the house THIS YEAR ALONE. I am sick of searching for the leak, digging it up and repairing it, so we have decided to "slip line" the current Sch40 1.5" crappy PVC with DR9 HDPE. Here are my questions and thanks again for bearing with me on this large and complex project.

    1. We don't need 1.5" feed as far as I know (1500 sq ft house with 2 people living in it), and it was originally installed with that because this used to be ag land. I know I can use 1" hdpe, but can I use 1.25"? I know it will fit (with about 0.25" diameter play from what I understand about the ID/OD of these pipes), but am not sure how well this will slide through (I was told we will be using a couple of quarts of some type of grease to make the slide easier). I am digging up all 90deg fittings on the current line where we will feed the new HDPE through to before moving into the next section, but am wondering if there is anything else here I am not thinking of.

    2. Will I need any special type of connectors to attach to the street water feed or is it just some basic pipe size (I hear 3/4" is common)?

    3. When I dig up the 90deg bends and cut them out of the pvc so the HDPE can make the turn with a softer radius, I want to still have the HDPE inside pvc just for the added protection. I am figuring I will use the heat gun to bend some 1.5" pvc in a soft arc and run the HDPE through that, then into the next section. Overkill? Better ideas on how to do this? Any thoughts appreciated.

    4. Currently, the nearest shut off valve is about 600' from the house. I want one closer. Any thoughts on what to use here and tricks/tips on installing? I am thinking right outside the house for location (and then leave the one 600 ft away to allow me to isolate leak locations in the future - I do realize that I will have to dig this one up and reinstall it with the HDPE running through it). Also, I have heard that the ball valved are better than the gate valves.

    5. The water pressure in the house is far too high (about 105 psi) and I want to install a regulator as long as we are doing all this other work. Some have said down at the meter is the best location as it protects your entire line, but I might want the higher pressure to some of my hose bibs shy of the house, and the HDPE DR9 should not have any problem with that. Any thoughts on this topic (i.e. what regulator to buy, where to install, tips/tricks on installation of these units)?

    6. My choice of suppliers for my HDPE is VERY limited considering my location, however I have found a source that will ship me HDPE in a 1500' roll for about half of what the vendors locally want me to pay for 3 x 500' rolls. Anybody know who makes the blue HDPE for *******? Any problems here that I should know about? I do have a home depot here on island, but they do not carry the big rolls here in the 1" and on their website they say it can not be shipped to HI. If I was able to get them to ship here, anyone know who makes the HDPE that home depot sells (black DR9 potable water pipe)?

    Thanks for taking the time to read and share your advice/knowledge on this topic. I am sure I will have more questions as we get closer to judgement day and appreciate all the help I can get.

    Cheers~
    W
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,283
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    http://terrylove.com/watersize.htm

    at 600 feet the 1" produces about 30% of what the 1.5" does.

    1200 feet is a long ways. The more distance, the more friction and friction loss.
    Just be aware, that the smaller pipes will allow a lot less usable water at your home. A lot less. I guess you can take turns using water if it becomes an issue. The link above explains a little about it.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  3. cadillac1960

    cadillac1960 New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Kauai
    On water flow loss, it is my understanding that PVC Sch40 has a loss rate of about 5 psi per 100 ft of pipe, whereas HDPE has a loss rate of about 1.5 psi per 100 ft of pipe. This does not include the loss from the multiple fittings on the current pvc which will not be a factor with the long HDPE stretches. So for pressure based on friction, I think I am going to come out ahead. As for pipe size, my calculations show that going from 1.5" to 1.25" will be ~30% reduction in amount of water in the pipe and going from 1.5" to 1" will be a ~55%. I am fine with the 30% loss, but the 55% loss may be an issue. Do you think I can pull 1.25" HDPE through 1.5" PVC - 3 separate pulls of 300', 300' and 600'? Let me know if I am talking out of my ass here or my calculations are flawed in some way. As I said too, there are only two of us in the house, and we are never running more than 3 or 4 components at any given time.

    Your help is truly appreciated.

    Cheers~
    W
  4. craigpump

    craigpump Active Member

    Messages:
    1,028
    Location:
    ct
    I have my doubts about you're being able to push/pull 300' of poly let alone 600' without some special equipment. There is a lot of friction involved even using some type of lubricant, if you get a little sand or dirt in between the two pipes it will make the job even tougher. You will have to put some type of nose on the poly so it won't catch in the joints of the PVC, a golf ball works good on 1", some experimentation in a toy store may get you a ball that will work on 1.25' but then you have no way to pull....
  5. cadillac1960

    cadillac1960 New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Kauai
    Thanks craigpump. The friend/neighbor that is helpin me out is a masonry contractor said he and his hired plumbing crews have done this before using a winch on a truck. First feed a thin line through the run using a shop vac and a sock tied to the end of the string. Use that string to pull through your pull line. Attache pull line to pipe (he did not mention how we would be doing this) and then pull with winch from one end while two guys at the source end hand feed and grease the poly. Sound about right and doable? All 3 of these pulls will have minimal bends in them.

    I appreciate your feedback and help.

    Cheers~
    W
  6. craigpump

    craigpump Active Member

    Messages:
    1,028
    Location:
    ct
    A recovery winch mounted on a truck would probably be the way I would go, nice and slow with plenty of pull.

    I'm curious about how they plan to fasten the pull line to the pipe.
  7. cadillac1960

    cadillac1960 New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Kauai
    I am curious as well about what you attach to pull. Any suggestions? There must be something as this is not the first time it is being done.
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,021
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Usually, they use a "bursting head" which splits the old pipe as the new one is pulled in.
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,021
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    ppipe

    The friction loss value is velocity dependent, and water will have to flow through the 1" line faster than in the 1 1/2" one so the pressure drop per 100' may be more than you calculated.
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