Sizing and Spec Help? Water Softener

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Freddi, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Freddi

    Freddi New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Minnesnowta
    Thank you in advance for your help, I have been reading alot here, and see that there are quite a few people in the know, and have been very helpful in the past. I hope to be able to tap that myself!


    Here are the usage particulars:

    - 3700 sq.ft. home with 3.5 bathrooms, 2 with bathtub, 2 Showers with water saver heads
    - 1 bath, and 2 showers a day, typically.
    - 5 people
    - 1" copper softener loop
    - Based on water usage, for the previous year, (not including irrigation) averages about 500 gallons a day. (I'm guessing the kids take too long in the shower)

    Here are the water particulars (municipal water - Blaine, MN)

    - hardness (grains) 18-20
    - iron (ppm): 0.00


    After I talked to the City Water Super, he commented that the iron is 0.0 for 9 months out of the year, but during the summer they have to use extra wells, and that they poly during those summer months, but I might see some days that approach 1-2ppm.


    My concerns; My family will be getting smaller in the next three years. I don't want a system that will be grossly oversized. (I don't mind if it back washes more than once a week, for the next couple of years) From the various calculators out there, I seem to be coming in with recommendations that vary between a 80K and 110K.

    Should I stick with a 80K unit? Is that too big? Standard resin ok, or consider a better stuff, for the longevity? Turbolator a good idea too handle the occasional Iron the system will see? I do like the idea of a larger resin tank, to facilitate better flows. I will probably pair this with a Fleck7000 head.

    Point me in the right direction...Please?

    Take care.
  2. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    Talke your 500 GPD and times by the hardness of 20=10,000 grains of removal per day. If you go 7 days between regens, that's an 80K system with a reserve.
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That will give him terrible salt efficiency.
  4. Freddi

    Freddi New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Minnesnowta
    So what should I consider instead? Bigger unit?

    I understand the math above, but it doesn't take the occasional iron dosing. Should I adjust for that?
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If they chlorinate the water there wont be any iron in your water. Most water companies do chlorinate.

    When you say "poly" for the summer, that usually means no chlorine and they are sequestering the iron with a chemical so you don't 'see' results of the iron. A potential problem is when the water is heated, the iron might get out of the chemical encapsulation and cause stains.

    Click the red Click Here link in my signature for more info on sizing and salt efficiency.
  6. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    The problem with using less salt per CF is the higher chance of having hardness bleed through. Salt is about $ .10 per pound so I would ratner use $5-10 more per year than have hardness bleed through from trying to save a little.
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That's nice of you to spend your customer's money without them knowing it. And you have said here that you go with higher salt use so you don't have hard water complaints.

    When you size correctly you can also reduce the water usage per regeneration. The "80K" you suggest here is going to have to use all but its maximum 75K capacity.and require all but 45 lbs per regeneration every 6-7 days depending on the reserve.
  8. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    I never said what salt doze to use. Besides, talk about spending customers money, the way you set up units they will regen more often and that causes wear and tear on the valve. So you may save a little salt each year, but I save in repair costs over the years because of less regens. Tell you what we should do, you give your advise and I'll give mine. You don't say anything about mine and I wouldn't say anything about yours. Are you man enough to except that?
  9. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,267
    Location:
    Maine
    Past history would suggest a negative response.
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I've noticed you conveniently didn't mention the salt dose but you have in the past. How does you not telling the OP help him?

    What would the salt dose be if you don't believe me when I say all but 45 lbs?

    Where do you see my sizing causing more frequent regeneration than your sizing? I would propose a larger than your "80K" with its max of 75K @ 45lbs. It would be sized for regeneration every 8 days and you have said as few as 4 days and mentioned every 6-7 days IIRC.

    I'll tell you what we should do, we need to get you to size properly and stop your customers from using so much extra salt and water so you feel better.
  11. Freddi

    Freddi New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Minnesnowta

    Did I ask something wrong? I don't know what I did...Just looking for some help.
  12. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    Gary, I'm not going to get in yet another pissing contest with you. You argue just to argue and are constantly bashing others. Does that help th OP. There are other on this site the use the same salt dose as I do. Get over yourself. You are not the softener guru.
  13. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    No you didn't ask anything wrong. I have my way of doing things and Gary has his. He just tries to force folks to do it his way. The real problem his he is not man enough to allows other to post their ideas.
  14. Freddi

    Freddi New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Minnesnowta
    Let me see if I'm grasping the right things here...

    Upon looking at the charts, it seems as though that there are diminishing returns on trying to knock off the bad ions with salt ions. Is the 'discussion' on whether it is better to have more media, or to use more salt with less 'good' done per pound of salt used?

    Using my example...say I go with a 80K unit (not decided yet), in order to get to close to a 80k softening, i would regen every 6-7 days, and use 45# of salt. (taken from above) Is that saying that I would literally use a bag of salt every week? (or is 45# a brine equivalent, where water is a major component of the weight measurement?)

    What is I use a 80K, the lower salt dose to get better salt usage efficiency, and regen every third day? Is that a better compromise?

    I only started with the 80K unit because that seemed to be what the various calculators pointed me towards, and that 80K is getting close to the biggest size I could find from the online vendors that are prevalent. I'm guessing that after you get more than 2.0cuft, the tank probably jumps up a size, and starts to get bigger than can be easily shipped. (True?)

    What size tank does 2.0, 3.0 or 4.0 Cuft of media take?

    Again, I apologize if I kicked the hornets nest...I really am just trying to properly size, and purchase a good unit. I don't want cheap, I don't want unneeded waste, and I sure as hell don't want a system that I pay for proprietary parts and half assed service.

    Thanks to all in advance.

    Justin
  15. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    Think of it this way, 1 CF of resin will yield 30,000 using 15 lbs of salt. The same CF of resin will yield 20,000 using only 6 lbs of salt. So you would need a 4 CF softener to get 80k using 6 lbs of salt and that doesn't even include a reserve. IMO it is too big, Gary would have you size the unit based on every faucet in the house flowing at the same time. How many times in your lifetime would you have every faucet running at the same time? That means if you have 2 bathrooms both tubs will be running, both toilets, both sinks, the kitchen sink, the dishwasher, the clothes washer, the icemaker and all outside hose bibbs if they go through the softener. Personal, I set my units up to use 8 lbs per CF and don't subtract the reserve. The added 2 lbs are my reserve. I have 5 people living in the house with 15 GPG hardness. Gary would have me install a 2+ CF unit. I have a 1 CF system and don't get hardness unless it runs out of salt.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    And that would be roughly 24 lbs of salt per month but, unless I'm recalling the wrong thread, you said 70K was needed for 6-7 days between regenerations. So there would be a reserve because you actually get 80K (from what you said above, 20K per ft and 4 cuft = 80K).


    That is not true. Here's a link to my Sizing page, show me where it says what you are claiming I say or do.
    http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm

    Since I think you are selling metered control valves, they regenerate based on gallons and the gallons are based on the K of capacity. The reserve is usually one day's worth of gallons. Now if you have a control valve with variable reserve you don't subtract anything.
    What you are doing is covering yer butt by dosing at 2 extra lbs per cuft of resin. In this case (the 4 cuft you mentioned) that would add 8 lbs of salt to each regeneration because you're not sizing correctly but...

    Based on what you've said about 70K (the max operating K for an "80K" softener is 75K), you aren't getting that 70K with much less than 45 lbs of salt per cuft per regeneration.

    BTW, the salt efficiency is 75/45 = 1666.66666 grains per lb. The 80/24 = 3333 grains per lb and that means a substantial salt savings over time plus, fewer regenerations which saves water too if you know how to set the minutes for each cycle position properly, and your control valve allows it.
  17. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    Gladly..... Click here for information on plumbing code constant SFR gpm sizing requirements. The gpm needed varies widely from one code to another (there are 4 codes) and, it is calculated as if every faucet in the house is running at once.

    This was pulled from the link you provided. You push to size units based on SFR of the home which means every fauset running. How many times on your life will you have every fauset on at the same time?

    Why can't you get over the fact that I don't set my units the same as you. Do you have a hard on for me? Is that why you always harrass me?
  18. stevenjer

    stevenjer New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    NY
    Hi Freddi why not try with an electronic descaler or no salt conditioner? that’s what we did and now we don’t have to worry about buying salt every month, it just runs in the background with no problem, no maintenance. We get the Scalewatcher 3 Star It cost less than $600. It’s cool. We’re happy. We found them at aquagenesisusa.com fyi. Hope it helps you!
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    No I did/do not size for every faucet running. Maybe you missed this part, especially the red part:
    A softener, or filter, has to be sized by the constant SFR gpm of the resin or mineral to be able to successfully treat the peak demand gpm that your plumbing can deliver; or actually, your peak demand gpm water use as a family.

    I can't get over how you set your units because you do it wrong and, you always say I'm wrong; the above is a good example. I always sized based on what fixtures were in the house, the number of people living there, the age of the kids AND HOW the family used water.

    The Clack WS-1 records the maximum gpm ever run through it, and none of my customers ever exceeded the SFR gpm I told them they would need. Many got up to within a gallon or two. I know because I asked them to check it and compare it to the SFR gpm on the page I linked to. I also had anyone that contacted me with a hard water complaint check the recorded max. I had competitors' customers with hard water complaints that found they had exceeded the SFR of their softeners though.

    Also, in this thread, there is no need to mention SFR because your "80K" will exceed his peak demand gpm unless he is running a garden hose that has soft water and all his bathrooms etc. using water at the same time. So your mention of SFR had nothing to do with what we were talking about; that was salt efficiency, it is another but separate part of correctly sizing a softener.

    BTW, I told you years ago I was trying to help you, and I still am, and you still mistakenly think I'm harassing you. Some day I might get into how you incorrectly calculate compensated hardness...
  20. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    That's funny. I started my own business 7 years ago and have increased every year. If I were doing it wrong the whole time one would think I would lose more customers than I gain per year.
    Nothing like toting your own horn.


    That's your problem. You try to force someone to do it your way. I don't want your help, I don't need your help, nor do I care for your help. BTW, I get the compensated hardness out of a book just like you get the SFR for a home out of a book. So maybe your book is wrong?
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