Shower schematic for Hansgrohe or Moen hand-shower, shower head and rain shower

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by El Jefe, Jun 5, 2014.

  1. El Jefe

    El Jefe New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Seattle, Washington
    I have no plumbing experience, so I'm looking for some guidance on how to best run the water lines in a shower. I'd like three outlets: Hand-shower, regular wall-mounted shower head, and a ceiling-mounted rain shower. I'd like to operate any of these alone or in any combination of two. I probably won't need all three together, but heck, why not (don't answer that).

    I've been reading a ton, and still feel like I'm going to buy a pile of stuff that won't work this way. Could use an experienced eye on my plan. Here's what I'm thinking:

    • 1/2" supply lines connecting to Hansgrohe Thermostatic valve w/ volume control and integrated diverter (3-way: A, B or A&B)Hansgrohe Thermostatic Valve with Volume and Diverter
    • Two lines from the thermostatic valve: 1) leads to the rainshower (through attic, b/w joists, surrounded with the loose insulation (Washington winters are generally mild); and 2) a line leading to a secondary diverter that can do A/B/A&B combination. Hansgrohe 10" AIR Rain-shower
    • From the diverter (Hansgrohe Trio/Quattro Trim), two lines that lead to the shower head (undecided what model) and rainshower (also undecided what model).

    Would this setup work? Or, is there a better layout?

    Also, would another configuration of spray units work better (for example, have the handshower by itself and pair the rainshower and regular shower head together behind the 2nd diverter)?

    Any suggestions on the specific shower head or handshower that I should look into? I'll probably just get something that's in the same Hansgrohe line. Alternatively, there is some Moen trim (Voss) that matches the faucets we bought for the vanity already. However, I'm leaning towards unmatching trim, even though this is unfashionable, simply because the Hansgrohe marketing did a better job making me think I should spend more money on their stuff.

    Shower layout.png
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2014
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,783
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Your drawing looks very wrong. Wait for Terry or HJ to wake up.

    Your shower lines in the attic is a bad idea as described. Those lines need to be in a special insulation box (made from thick foam insulation) sealed to the ceiling.
  3. El Jefe

    El Jefe New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Seattle, Washington
    Ha! Awesome! Good thing I haven't actually purchased anything yet.

    For the in-attic piping, I do recall reading a response from Terry to another thread that said something to the effect of surrounding the pipe with insulation, but leaving it uninsulated underneath to allow better heat transfer from the room below. There would be some open space around the pipe where trapped heat from the room below can build up. Also, I would pitch the pipe slightly to help water drainage. Maybe use PEX?

    The whole system would be easier and cheaper without the rain shower, but I'd like to find a way to do it right and keep it in the plan.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2014
  4. El Jefe

    El Jefe New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Seattle, Washington
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,783
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    [​IMG]

    This was a photo Terry linked us too. It's close to the way I do it. But my way's better! LOL

    Got to go to work.

    I'll do my own sketch tonight for you.
  6. El Jefe

    El Jefe New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Seattle, Washington
    Thanks - That would be helpful.

    I am eager to hear more about why my (first ever) shower design looks so wrong. It makes total sense to me :)

    Water goes to diverter 1, and I can choose to send to rain shower and/or diverter 2. From diverter 2, I can choose to send to hand-shower and/or regular shower head. It's beautiful!
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,783
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    You have three way diverters listed in your drawing twice, You would not need the second diverter if your thermostatic control valve also has a built in three way diverter.

    If you have a thermostatic control valve only, then it would first feed the three way diverter and from that out to the three lines.
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,783
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I build the ceiling water line boxes out of this stuff.

    ISO Board.

    [​IMG]

    Water lines about 1 3/4" off of the back side of the ceiling drywall. The Iso board sealed to the homes vapour barrier and keep 1" away from the pipes.

    Like this but upside down.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
  9. El Jefe

    El Jefe New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Seattle, Washington
    Thanks for the pictures - that looks like a nice solution. I would just be going up the inside wall, then over the shower drywall ceiling - in that setup would I just seal the board to the drywall in the attic?

    As for the diverters, maybe I mislabeled. Not sure the right term, but my understanding is that it's 2 function alone or both together - so 3 possible diversions: A, B or A&B. I'll have to double check. I looked for a unit that has the thermostatic valve + a diverter that can do 3 fixtures, but seems I could only find them with two-fixture diverters.

    Assuming the diverters each allow flow to two fixtures (not three), would there be any problem with my illustrated setup above?
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,783
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    In Seatlle I'm sure you have a vapour barrier requirement for the ceiling. I would run a bead of spray foam along the vapour barrier. Drop on a piece of foam. Repeat for the other side. Run a bead along these two foam pieces. Add the top. Then stick something with some weight onto. Maybe some 2"x10" 's off cuts to weight the foam from expanding too much. Once you have this in place then lap over top again with the loose batt insulation.

    This foam ISO stops any air flow from hitting the pipes. The ISO foam acts like a beer cooler catching the heat from the bathroom escaping to keep the pipes warm.

    In Vancouver this is a code required step.
  11. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

    Messages:
    233
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    3 way diverters don't seem too uncommon. When I first plumbed my shower I installed a Danze 3 way 4 port 1/2" 8 position(off,A,B,C,A+B,A+C, A+B+C, off). If I didn't have 4 body spray jets, it would have worked fine. I had to go to 3/4" brass, which quadrupled+ the cost, to flow an acceptable amount of water.

    If what you have is a 2 way 3 port diverter over your thermo, and the thermo is what you think it is, your diagram should work. If both the diverters can flow A+B, to get all heads running simultaneously, flow might be weak in that situation. Post part numbers or pictures(links aren't working for me), and the guys can give you a more definitive answer.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  12. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

    Messages:
    233
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    Also, I'd leave the locations of the heads the way you have them(rain straight from the thermo). I have a 10" rain head with modified flow restrictor, its thirsty, and it drenches you. The other shower heads should do fine at 2/2.5 GPM each. Make sure your thermo can flow the total of your heads.
  13. El Jefe

    El Jefe New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Seattle, Washington
    I'll check again on the diverters. The links above were to ****, but it looks like the **** part of the link was removed. I'll post some part numbers instead later.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2014
  14. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,754
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    When you become a plumber and have to go out when the entire city is out of power repairing freeze breaks, get back to me.
    I've been fixing frozen pipes in the Northwest for forty years. :)
  15. El Jefe

    El Jefe New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Seattle, Washington
    So, I think I get the idea of the picture, but not the details I'd probably run into trying to do this.

    Do I just run the pipe directly above the drywall and through a block for support. Then place rolled insulation on both sides of it (not underneath) and also over the top?

    Or is the picture showing the pipes laid directly on the drywall with the insulation over the pipes, kind of "doming" it a bit?

    Also, sorry about the links naming. In your edit comments on my last post, I see the reason, and I'll be mindful of that in future posts. Can I link directly to the parts on the Hansgrohe site?
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,783
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I'll let Terry answer that one.

    I have only fixed one busted pipe line ever in my career caused by freezing. I do know that the inspectors in Vancouver would never let that fly. They like the ISO boxes.
  17. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,754
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I've never had to fix a broken pipe doing it my way.
    And my way is approved by the inspectors.

    Anytime you put a blanket of insulation over the pipe, it works. Foam insulation in an unheated space does not work.
    But anytme you keep the pipes on the warm side of insulation, either by batts, or by making a foam box, it works.

    Code allows wrappng a pipe in foam, which left in unheated spaces can freeze rather quckly. I never have had to go back on my repairs.
    I've fixed pleny of other peoples mistakes though.

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