Shower drain help needed

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Psal2

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subfloor/floor questions

In prep to replacing my drain and pipes, I had to cut out about a 2' 6" wide by 16" deep piece of the 1/2" plywood underlayment. I have some 1/2" OSB laying around and was wondering if I could use that to patch the hole. I am going to use some cross pieces to give me something to nail into.

I will be covering the 1/2" ply underlayment with either a 1/2" cement board or maybe 3/4" plywood sheet. What do you recommend?

Another question here, if I use the 3/4" ply should the grain go perpendicular to the grain of the 1/2" and should it be screwed down to the 1/2" and at the joists or within the body of the 1/2. After that, felt and mesh, and mud pan.
 

TheZster

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OSB wouldn't be my material of choice... But you'll probably get by. Put down the OSB - cover it with a vapor barrier... then put down your cement board - and follow with the rest of your stuff....

If you want to do it "right".... get a small square of 1/2 exterior grade plywood at the big orange box..... then follow with felt/cementboard/stuff..

Don't worry about the "grain"... plywood has cross grains in each layer... attach to the joists and blocking.
 

Jadnashua

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You want at least 3/4", and plywood would be good. Plywood does have a grain to it...it is significantly less strong across the surface grain vs along it. So, install it across the joists. Also, you need to span at least two joist bays, or add some blocking otherwise, you will be relying on the screws or nails at the edge to hold it in. You don't want your floor under your shower to flex, and 1/2" won't do it.
 

Psal2

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1/2" would be the first underlayment, then either 1/2" cement board or 3/4" ply. That is why I thought I could use the 1/2" OSB and then something on top of it to add strength. No way I want it to flex and have a leak later on.

I just thought that since I am using cement board on the wall, I will have that available for the floor. I have some 3/4" exterior ply too.

If I use the ply and the 1/2" is running N/S, then I thought the 3/4" should be running E/W.

And as I am doing a mud pan (felt, mesh, mud, etc), it might be easier to staple the felt and mesh to ply rather than cbu. If I used cbu then the felt is under it and the mesh would be over it and might not staple to the cbu.
 

Sulconst2

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plywood should always be perpendicular to the joists. fill your 1/2" then 3/4" plywood to the whole room. set your shower pan in mud then 1/2" cement board to the rest of the floor. no wire. the cement board replaces a mud job. mesh tape and thinset the joints. then ready for tile.
 

Jadnashua

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There is a common misconception that cement board is structural; IT IS NOT! It will bend and crack if not fully supported, thus, your need for more than 1/2" plywood. The subfloor needs to be strong enough to support the tile, etc, over it. The cement board (and 1/4" on a floor is adequate unless you need thicker to adjust height, and even then, more plywood is better), acts as a decoupling layer that mortar and tile adhere to well. AND, don't forget to use mortar UNDER the cement board. This does not actually hold it down (well it does, but it is not primary), but fills in any minor surface irregularities so you have a firm layer to tile to. Nothing worse than hearing a crunch when you walk on a tiled floor caused by the subfloor flexing.
 

Psal2

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Tiled floor will come a little later. Need to finish the shower first. Appreciate the input.
 

Psal2

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connection question

I am finally getting around to cutting the copper pipe and I did get a Fernco 3001-22 Cooper to PL shielded coupling.

I also got some 2" PVC, a 45 street elbow and a P-trap with a "union" (?) coupling. I also have some PVC primer, glue and plumbers putty for the rest.

My question, does anything need to be spread on the PVC or copper WHERE the Fernco coupling goes? It doesn't look like it but I thought I would check.
 

TheZster

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You don't have that thing installed "yet"? I figured you and your wife would be "testing the plumbing" by now....... ;) Make sure your piping is clean.... and attach the coupling..............
 

Psal2

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I have too, too many projects going on to worry about getting clean... :)

Working on just that area this weekend.
 

Psal2

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What is needed now?

Okay, cut the copper, used the 2" connector, 45 degree street but now it appears that the P-trap sitting in the lowest spot in the shower area is about 3/4 to 1" higher than the 45 street. Also the original has two very short 45 degree elbows and a small piece in between to make an "S" so it would fit in the center of the shower where it is notched.

Do I need to do this piece by piece with a small trap piece?

ADDED: I purchased 4 22 1/2 degree hubs, 2 more 45 street, and 2 45 hubs. I have 5' of 2" PVC pipe. I still think I will have more twists and turns than the original in order to get it in here. It might be possible to cut the 22 1/2 in half to make a small turn too. Not sure how much I need to go into the hub (does it need to go to the stop or can it be a little short of the stop)?

I am attaching the pix so I can get your recommendations.
 
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Psal2

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Maybe this will help. I laid out the old next to the new and overlapped one. The overlap shows the new behind the old, you can see the section from the union joint is higher by about 3/4 of an inch. The trap area is much wider too in the new.
 
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TheZster

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Pete:

Plumbing with new materials vs. old means improvising and adjusting as necessary.

I am under the impression that you're going to be installing a new shower pan with this installation. Is your drain moveable (are you building it yourself) or do you have a one piece tray with non-moveable drain hole?

Take your PVC and move it around this way and that, adjusting as necessary, to get your fit.

From what I can see, you should be able to get pretty close to the original spot - though you may have to notch that joist a tiny bit more.

If I'm seeing it wrong.... just what is the issue?
 

Sulconst2

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i dont want to be a pessimist, but. if you are having trouble with this drain. you are never going to make a custom pan waterproof. plus it looks like your 2x8 joist is notch 2/3 way thru. try standing on that and see if it holds you. i bet if you bounce you can crack it.
time for some professional help!
 

Terry

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I'm with the last post.

If you're doing a mud set pan, you can move the drain to miss the joist.
The joist should be fixed, it's almost cut through.

If you are in fact using a mudset pan with liner, it will require that type of drain fitting with weep holes and clamping for the liner.

Most codes expect a solvent weld p-trap and not one with a union.

Your're getting closer.
 

Psal2

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Terry said "If you are in fact using a mudset pan with liner, it will require that type of drain fitting with weep holes and clamping for the liner. Most codes expect a solvent weld p-trap and not one with a union."

Okay, I have a 3 piece Oatey PVC clamping drain for use with shower pan liner. I will return the union joint p-trap (just thought that it would be easier to adjust) and get a regular. I can move the drain around but where they notch the joist is the center (those idiots).

thezther said "From what I can see, you should be able to get pretty close to the original spot - though you may have to notch that joist a tiny bit more."

sulconst2 said "plus it looks like your 2x8 joist is notch 2/3 way thru. try standing on that and see if it holds you. i bet if you bounce you can crack it.
time for some professional help!"

I will try to brace up the joist where cut. I was wondering about that cut. Yes I can stand on the joist (I go 250#), but I am not sure I want to bounce on it (if I want to visit the family room under here, I will just go down the stairs, thank you). As far as professional help, my wife, says I have needed that for a long time...

Any suggestions on the joist?
 

TheZster

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I was wrong to suggest notching further... (shouldn't study photos after 9a.m.)... Sulconst is right on... Appears your ceiling is holding up the existing 2 X rather than the other way around... and it should be braced. There are a number of ways to do this... all with varying degrees of dependability.

If you "patch" the notch by sistering another 2X against it... you should use the longest piece of lumber you can get in there (cut out some more flooring on the far side of the photo and mate a new piece against the original) - or decide to move your drain off center a bit more, and put your new piece on the bottom side of it (as oriented by your photo). The most successful bracing I've used in similar situations consists of "original piece/layer of 1/2 inch plywood/new piece" all held together by construction adhesive and bolts or long wood screws. The longer the better, extending past your notch by a couple of feet or more on each side (preferably more). I've also used a metal plate the same way - again, longer is better.

The best method is to sister a 2X all the way across the floor, but will involve more extensive demolition.........
 

Psal2

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thezster said:
I The longer the better, extending past your notch by a couple of feet or more on each side (preferably more). I've also used a metal plate the same way - again, longer is better.

The best method is to sister a 2X all the way across the floor, but will involve more extensive demolition.........

I am not sure how far I can get into this under the shower area. More demolition...my wife is about to kill me now...no way. I was hoping to just sister some double laminated 3/4" ply (so 1 1/2") or maybe I can use a 2x6 (but plywood might have less twist and be straighter) to the entry side (bottom of photo) but I am limited to the right (this butts up to the outside of the house) and not sure how far I can get to left (maybe 2') and I was thinking construction adhesive and either lags or long screws too.

Then the drain will still be interesting because I need to connect a couple of pieces just to get it to the correct height that the p-trap is when sitting on the bottom of this area without getting it above the floor level. Still trying to figure that puzzle out (not sure I am playing with all the pieces... ;) )
 
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