Should I rough-in for a bathroom?

[Markts30]

Here is my take on the matter - once again, feel free to comment...
As far as the CAD, it is a hobby so be kind...

It is not the way I would choose to do it, but working with what he has already got... It is the best I could come up with ...
If we were to redesign everything, I would have gone 6" deeper in the main line and had much better options....

 

[FloridaOrange]

Here is my take on the matter - once again, feel free to comment...
As far as the CAD, it is a hobby so be kind...

Not to highjack the thread but do you want a job? I wouldn't be worried about your cad work at all.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Leejosepho]

".... The flow from your shower is not going to siphon its own trap dry ...." is not true in the drain layout proposed in that post.

Please explain. To siphon that trap dry, the shower would have to produce enough water to completely fill the 2" pipe for its entire and short length (if that would even be enough), and I have yet to see a typical shower capable of ever doing that.

 

[Geniescience]

abuse at Terrylove.com

Please explain. To siphon that trap dry, the shower would have to produce enough water to completely fill the 2" pipe for its entire and short length (if that would even be enough), and I have yet to see a typical shower capable of ever doing that.

let us all refrain from chasing any one person for more interaction. Leave out the "you".

The subject is the subject, and any person can answer it. A query, about whether or not a shower trap can siphon itself out, is a question that anyone can answer.

I have received two Private Messages from the previous posting person in the last 36 hours, the second one asking me for my response, with a minor "or else" consequence attached to that request.

Let the thread originator, who owns the thread, control where the thread goes. My posts speak to him, in general. Whatever can encourage him to post again, is good.

I do not feel comfortable engaging in one-to-one posts from someone who may be advising beyond his knowledge level and doesn't see that, and who also gets aggressive (e.g. with me, in a now deleted post), and who is now beginning to make me feel hectored and harassed into posting here again.

I sent a Private Message to the thread originator, and I received a response, which encourages me. I hope this thread continues. I will be glad to step away and let even more knowledgeable people carry the thread forward by commenting on the main subject of the thread.

If anyone comments on these remarks of mine, I hope it will not interfere with the main subject of the thread. My apologies to the thread originator, who owns this thread, for using his thread to set my feelings down for the record.

david

 

[Leejosepho]

The subject is the subject, and any person can answer it.

Well then, what is the answer? How would the trap in question be able to be siphoned out? At 2 gpm, the shower could not get the job done.

I have an actual test planned to see how that trap might act, I will post results and a picture, and I am fairly sure my own statement will be proved quite correct.

And for the record: I do not care in the slightest as to *who* is right or wrong here. Rather, and along with doing anything I can to try to help stop the arrogant comments occasionally made at the expense of DIYers, I simply want to know *what* is the truth about the operation of this particular trap.

 

[Kordts]

Lee,
it doesn't matter if your non-code compliant installations work fine. You shouldn't advise others to install in a non-compliant manner. The codes are minimum standards. You can go above them, but you shouldn't go below them. I have fixed a lot of DIY plumbing that worked great for a couple of years. Toilets aren't self venting. How could they? Every fixture needs a vent. If they are close enough, they can share, but they need one. In some instances unvented fixtures won't siphon out the traps, but you can't allow plumbers/DIyers to decide which fixtures get vented, because then you get a can of worms. We aren't hydraulic engineers and able to figure out which ones can get skipped. It's best practice to follow the code.

Peace out.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

This is why DIY'r plumbing should be inspected and tested to be approved for use, all 3 stages whether the state is laxed on codes or not.

KY wouldn't allow any of that design; flat vent/wet vent/no individual vent for the fixtures they are serving.

KY's codes are closely tied to NY's codes as far as stringency goes.

Also, KY plumbing codes are tested to 100% of thier maximum demand, never the minimum standard set forth/abided by in many other states.

I "tried" to help a buddy with a ground rough on his house addition. He was farm exempt where he lived and no permits required. Well, the father-in-law, a real SOB that had it in his mind to run almost identical to the pictures above and I knew the second I got there that it wasn't going to fly.

Guy got bent out of shape for "trying" to tell him the right way and he got all huffy........I got in my truck and left. When the buddy called and asked why I left.....I told him that if you leave what that hack just put in the ground....you'll have more problems then what you'll imagine.

Years later,

He constantly has to rod out the drain (pull the toilet on the slab) since the idiot didn't turn up a cleanout. Then, the jetted tub is inoperable because when you drain the tub the sink looks like a explosion going off with backpressure trying to push the air.......because the vent is wrong.

I literally hammer customers on charges when I have to drain clean systems like this. Very difficult to get the cable going where you want it and the frustration is not worth it.....and you usually find out after the fact. Too many systems are designed against code and that is why the users of the system suffer.

And then the plumbers do the dance to cash in on the nonsense...

 

[Leejosepho]

Lee,
it doesn't matter if your non-code compliant installations work fine. You shouldn't advise others to install in a non-compliant manner.

Understood, and I am not aware of having done that. Rather, I have refused to either join in or remain silent about DIYers being lashed by people who do not at least also add comments about how something *should* be done.

Toilets aren't self venting. How could they?

As long as the line into which the toilet dumps is able to "burp" somewhere else to make room for the discharge, and maybe even if only slowly, a toilet will flush and still hold the seal in its trap all by itself. Maybe that ability should not be called "self-venting", but the fact remains that the toilet, itself, done not always need a remote vent. Such was the case right here in my own house before I began moving the bathroom and re-plumbing everything a couple of years ago.

In some instances unvented fixtures won't siphon out the traps, but you can't allow plumbers/DIyers to decide which fixtures get vented, because then you get a can of worms.

Understood, and this thread was a great opportunity for one or more professional plumbers to address that very kind of situation:

I've left the pictures up here in hopes that someone can constructively point out what I may have done wrong. Maybe it's amusing for professionals to look at my stuff but I would at least hope that these professionals would have the decency to help me prevent some obvious nightmare.

It's already been pointed out that I'm going to have problems with my drains but no details have been mentioned. I didn't join the forum to show off my plumbing work. I came to seek advice and help. I've spent time looking through old posts but it's clear that I don't "get-it". This is a shop bathroom that will see occasional use but I also want it to be right.

As best I can tell, my own advice is at least decent, and the CAD drawings posted add the vent for the shower.

Doe anybody see anything else truly critical here?

 

[Kordts]

Lee,
that installation was wrong because of the tees, instead of wyes, and the lack of vents. Telling him it is good is bad advice. I understand you wanting to be helpful, but sometimes being helpful includes telling the hard truth. That installation really needs to be done over. Toilets need to be vented, big time. I have seen unvented toilets on an upper floor cause water to splash out of the unvented toilets on the bottom floor. Not very sanitary.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Amen my plumbing brother!

Wastewater does two things when it goes through a pipe:


Pushes air in front of it and sucks air behind it......you interrupt that system and you'll have chronic plumbing problems.

Plumbing was designed/coded to operate error-free. Not the latter.

 

[FloridaOrange]

KY wouldn't allow any of that design; flat vent/wet vent/no individual vent for the fixtures they are serving.
.

Good points however....are you saying wet venting does not work?

 

[Leejosepho]

Lee,
that installation was wrong because of the tees, instead of wyes, and the lack of vents. Telling him it is good is bad advice.

To the trained eye that must comply with all codes in order to have a license to work in the trade, I can clearly understand "all wrong". On the other hand, I spent a fair amount of time studying what is actually there, and I kept this in mind all the way through:

Wastewater does two things when it goes through a pipe:
Pushes air in front of it and sucks air behind it......you interrupt that system and you'll have chronic plumbing problems.

Taking one section at a time:

As I believe my test will confirm later today, that P-trap for the shower can trickle 2 gpm into a 2" pipe without being sucked dry, and that particular pipe has a straight, short run into a sufficiently-oriented fitting in the 4" line where the vent behind the sink will assure that the toilet does not suck water from the shower trap.

Okay, so the even-if-modified-as-suggested sink drain should ideally connect at the shower drain pipe with a wye instead of a tee, yet its output truly is a comparative and well-vented trickle.

Toilet venting can be relative to a variety of things, and this toilet dumps into a short and straight 4" line that is downstream-vented at the wall and does not have to bear any other heavy loads. The wall vent in the 4" line relieves any "push pressure" ahead of the flush, and the fact that the 4" line is laid as it is and has at least twice the area of the actual outlet at the bottom of the toilet means the toilet is not going to suck its own trap dry. If that 4" line was only 3", however, things might be different there.

I understand you wanting to be helpful, but sometimes being helpful includes telling the hard truth.

In the arena of permanent recovery from chronic alcoholism, you might think I was the one being the unreasonable or insensitive hard-butt telling people many things they do not want to hear. And in that realm, there are certain times and places I occasionally sound (if I speak at all) just like some of the professional folks here.

I do understand no professional dares to say this particular plumbing job is the best he or she has ever seen or even that it might work well enough, and I also greatly appreciate this kind of interaction so others like myself might be able to occasionally offer a fellow DIYer an opinion or a little advice as to whether or how something might work at all.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Good points however....are you saying wet venting does not work?

The only time the state of KY allows wet venting is when there is an existing structure where it is nearly impossible to vent per say code without doing major structure alterations. Rare....would be a good word to use. It has to be first "approved" by the state before even considered.

Anytime you drain over another fixture you are almost setting up the timeline for reduced inner diameter of piping. It takes time, doesn't happen overnight but the individual vent system for each fixture can operate error-free, removing all possibilities of clogging by the mere fact that no wastewater ever goes through those vents.

The combination waste/vent systems in my area from years ago were nothing but completely clogged......all because in essence it was a shortcut.

I "used" to think that it was an excellent idea to see a branch off the lav into the lead arm of a toilet thinking wow that is great. That'll keep that toilet free flowing.

The reality of that statement was if that lav was S-trapped, it would siphon out or it would clog quite easily. Some buildings you are limited in repairs on those setups as well.

And to leejoseph:

You can second guess, implify, construct a million mock scenarios that can prove what you are after to accomplish. If everyone starts thinking like you on these terms in the relation of the art of installing piping systems, we're doomed.

Helping and hindering are two different approaches. Go to a habitat for humanity construction of a home and you'll find 200 people there, 60 of them at the food/drink picnic table "conversating" if you call it that. Another 40 in the basement, 50 that went to get materials and sketchy at best, about 4 or 5 people that TRULY know the codes and how to do it right.

The rest of them walk around feeling special thinking that thier method is right because "I know it can work and if I show you this little experiment, I'll prove it."

In the blighted urban area of KY towards the river it made the news that 3 HFH homes were torn down and rebuilt because everyone brought thier backyard logic to the plate........even though they were "good citizens for trying to help a good cause."

Who do you think footed that bill? $64,000 worth of materials, junked. Times that by 3 and you have good wasted money for some struggling family who needed it all because someone wanted to push thier ideas around codes.

I'll be the first to admit that I personally don't agree with all that's in my codebook,,,,but tough shit. I have to follow those rules as my license states I should. Those codes originated through years of repeated case histories that led to that final proposal to the code committee to provide that change to correct an ongoing problem.

If plumbers like myself don't interject and correct others who propose "do it my way" in the realm of public knowledge and information trading, you'll find that plumbing systems will indirectly be built with major ramifications down the road causing unneeded maintenance and repair, all because someone went outside of the guidelines of proper installation.

 

[Leejosepho]

You can second guess, implify, construct a million mock scenarios that can prove what you are after to accomplish. If everyone starts thinking like you on these terms in the relation of the art of installing piping systems, we're doomed.

I doubt things would be quite that bad, but we really do not disagree. The specific question here was another matter, however: Can the water draining from the specific shower in question suck its trap dry? I forgot to get a 2" trap when I was out getting materials to hook up my new Woodfords yesterday, but I truly do want to know for sure either way.

... codes originated through years of repeated case histories that led to that final proposal to the code committee to provide that change to correct an ongoing problem.

Again, I have no argument with codes, and whenever I am aware of them, I at least try to pay attention to what is behind them if I cannot perfectly comply for one reason or another. And as best I can recall, I have never suggested someone intentionally ignore a code.

If plumbers like myself don't interject and correct others who propose "do it my way" in the realm of public knowledge and information trading, you'll find that plumbing systems will indirectly be built with major ramifications down the road causing unneeded maintenance and repair, all because someone went outside of the guidelines of proper installation.

Again, no argument, and I am far from being the only one here who greatly appreciates that kind of interjection or correction.