Should I replace all 5 of my toilets?

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Jeff_d

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I've got 10 year old 1.6 gpf builder grade Gerber toilets in my house that we moved into 2 years ago (They actually use way more than 1.6 gpf, more like 3-4 gallons by my measure). I have 5 kids and I plunge a toilet at least once per week. Yes, I tell the kids not to use so much paper but they're 2-10 years old so their judgement generally leaves a lot to be desired. I had the same issues at our old house with builder grade American Standard toilets of similar vintage. In both cases yes, the plumbing is properly vented and it's always simply a matter of a push or two with the plunger to push the clog through the trapway. The toilets flush great when there's nothing but liquid in there.

Anyway, I'm about tired of this crap and one day it's going to end up costing me a bunch of money when one of them overflows. Reading through here it seems the Toto Drakes and UltraMax have better quality control than the American Standard Champion 4s (Both in 1.6 GPF).

Can anyone speak to the 3" vs. 4" flush valve difference? I read in some threads on here that the AS 4" really is no better than a 3" because it's immediately choked down after the flapper to 3". Did I understand that correctly and is there any benefit to the 4"?

I'd really like 1 piece toilets for fewer leak points, especially upstairs, but I don't care for the look of the UltraMax vs. the Drake (I'd rather just have a standard looking potty) and the ~$600-800 difference in cost to do my whole house with 1 pieces is not insignificant. I have had an incident where a tank bolt washer dripped and went unnoticed long enough to stain the ceiling below an upstairs toilet but no real damage done.

In either case (2 piece or 1 piece) it seems that the Toto G-Maxes are cheaper by a few bucks than the American Standard Champion 4s. Are there any others I should consider?
 

Jadnashua

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If your existing toilets are using lots more water than by design, they probably have the wrong flapper valves in them. The earlier design 1.6g toilets tended to be dogs. They can work great if designed for it, but the original ones often just tweaked the flapper, and with the trapway having been designed for more water, didn't work well.

A 4" flapper valve is an anomaly. Like lots of things in life, people (companies) like to brag about bigger is better. In this case, IMHO, it's not. Especially when it comes time to replace them when they're worn out, and a larger diameter one will have more water pressure on it. AS has some decent designs, but their QA/QC isn't fantastic. You might get a good one, you might not. Toto's is more reliable in that sense, and consider that they are the largest toilet manufacturer in the world.
 

Plumbs Away

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Almost -- and I stress ALMOST -- any modern (<=1.6 GPF) toilet is a big improvement over what was available 10-20 years ago. Kohler and American Standard both use marketing hype to exaggerate the size of their respective AquaPiston and Champion flush valves. Kohler's appears to be 3" in the tank, but is actually 2" where it connects to the bowl. As mentioned above, the AS Champion 4" is really 3" at the tank exit point. A good point of reference is www.map-testing.com. You can use the site to check by model number any toilet that interests you and the site will give specifics about the toilet (i.e., configuration, flush valve size, GPF, etc.) and also indicates how many grams of solid waste are removed with a single flush, with >=1,000 being the highest. I personally wouldn't go with anything less than 1,000, although I do have an American Standard one-piece Right Height Elongated Champion 4, which has a MaP rating of 800 and it is an excellent performer.
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, the MAP test uses plastic wrapped paste...not exactly a real comparison. The designer of the test says that anything over 500g should be fine. Manufacturers have figured out how to make the best of the numbers, but that doesn't necessarily translate to the real world. The trapway design, including shape and exit angles is more important about how well things move through the toilet.
 

Plumbs Away

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FWIW, the MAP test uses plastic wrapped paste...not exactly a real comparison. The designer of the test says that anything over 500g should be fine. Manufacturers have figured out how to make the best of the numbers, but that doesn't necessarily translate to the real world. The trapway design, including shape and exit angles is more important about how well things move through the toilet.
The wrapped miso paste used by MaP is almost identical in consistency to ground sausage in the skin. I suppose miso is less expensive than real meat. It's about as realisitic as I imagine they can get to the real thing. If 1,000 grams flushes completely away and doesn't leave the bowl a mess, I say it's all good. I would definitely not go with anything with a score lower than 800. Just my preference.
 

Jadnashua

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800g is over 28oz, or if you look at it this way, about 7 sticks of butter end to end...IOW, way more than most any normal person could produce in one sitting. The MAP test does not test for bowl cleaning, only pushing the slippery, smooth stuff out and down the drain. It's mostly a marketing thing...a well designed toilet with 500g or more is all an average person needs. A poorly designed one may look great in the MAP tests, but be lousy in the real world. A typical roll of TP only weighs a few ounces, and won't be an issue with any rational usage, either.

Some of the early ones, had trouble moving 300g, and yes, those were dogs.
 

Jeff_d

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I went ahead and did this. I bought 1 Toto Drake G-Max 1.6 gpf, non-Sanigloss 6 weeks ago and installed that in the most used bathroom. I didn't have any issues but I opted to swap in a 3" blue Toto flapper which lacks the burp hole in the side. This is the equivalent of holding down the flush lever for every flush and raises the gpf to 2.5. It improved the flush slightly and the bowl wash quite a bit. It also quiets the flush as the flapper doesn't slam down abruptly. With 5 small kids in the house and $0.0029 per gallon rates for water & sewer combined I think it's worth it for fewer "skid marks" and potentially fewer clogs. At ~30 household wide flushes per day it shouldn't cost me more than about $30 per year in water & sewer vs. the pink flappers. I plugged it up with a wash cloth and flushed with the blue flapper to ensure it wouldn't overflow the bowl with a single flush + refill cycle and it does not.

Anyway, no clogs and no "skid marks" for 6 weeks on that "pilot" toilet which was a record for our household. I even put an absurd amount of toilet paper in it (1/3 of a roll or so) one day to see what would happen and it was able to handle it in one flush.

I was happy enough with that one that I did the rest of the bathrooms this week also with the same blue flappers.

If I had to find something to complain about on these Totos it would be the tank lid fit. The alignment nubs really should be more prominent if they're not going to design the lid to overhang the tank. Sometimes when people lean against the seat it pushes the lid back 1/4" or so and then you can see the unglazed rim of the top of the tank. Some of the lids of the four that I bought have more prominent nubs that do a better job. On others there is almost no resistance provided by the nubs and the lid could be slid right off laterally. I might glue some sort of stop along the underside of them to keep them aligned properly when the seat pushes on them.
 

hj

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HOW the trapway is designed is the most important item. IF it has twists and turns with "sharp" corners, if is going to plug more easily than one with a smooth "inverted" U design, like the one I use.
 

Gary Swart

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Most early generation low flow toilets were dogs. The manufactures tried vary tweaks to existing designs and they all failed. Toto became a leader in the industry with better designed toilets that were trouble free. Yes, they did have a couple of flops too. Today's toilets are much better, but most manufacturers still make a cheap builder grade that have less than satisfactory performance. Toto is still leading the way with new generation low flow using less than 1 gallon per flush. Replacing 5 toilets will be expensive, so you would be wise to shop not only price, but performance. Toto has a wide selection both in price and style. On the bright side, all Totos perform well, so you can't pick a bad one.
 
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