Should I Purchase A New Tank

[TVL]

I've decided I want to get the water tank from underneath the house. Since I have a shop now, I also have a place at the rear of the shop that would make a good spot for the tank .............. and it would also be located right at the well instead of being about 100 feet away.

The tank I now use is a Sears Captive Air tank and has never given a bit of trouble. I check the air once every Spring and generally need to add about 5 PSI to maintain the 37 PSI with the tank empty. The pressure switch is set to cut on at 38 PSI and off at 60PSI.

Anyway, I put the tank in in 1985 and it appears to be in great shape. I was curious to see what the majority stated I should do:

1- Continue using the same tank since it has never given any trouble and appears the water bladder can be easily changed?

2- Or, purchase a new tank?

If the consensus is to replace the tank, what is the recommendation? I don't want a piece of junk that will need replacing in a few short years!

Here is a few photos of the existing tank:

 

[Reach4]

Well-X-Trol is the top name in pressure tanks. They use a butyl diaphragm rather than a bladder. More reliable and less permeable; you will not get the pressure loss you have been seing.

I think it would be neat to try for another few decades on the Sears tank, but the majority will recommend a new tank.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

I remember those old tanks. It is hard to believe that one is still working. And I would bet there is water in the air chamber, even though it is still working. If space is a problem you could replace it with a Pside-Kick kit that only uses a 4.5 gallon size tank, which takes up much less room and actually works better than an old fashioned large tank.

 

[TVL]

If space is a problem you could replace it with a Pside-Kick kit that only uses a 4.5 gallon size tank, which takes up much less room and actually works better than an old fashioned large tank.

The captive air tank currently in use was supposedly equivalent to a 40 gallon conventional tank. With the current setup and a 1 HP submersible pump, it takes 59 seconds to fill the tank from start to finish. I do know from reading on this site that the pump should run 1 minute for proper cooling. If I were to go with the Pside-Kick kit, would this setup allow the pump to run for a minute or more to allow for proper cooling of the motor?

Thanks!

 

[Valveman]

The captive air tank currently in use was supposedly equivalent to a 40 gallon conventional tank. With the current setup and a 1 HP submersible pump, it takes 59 seconds to fill the tank from start to finish. I do know from reading on this site that the pump should run 1 minute for proper cooling. If I were to go with the Pside-Kick kit, would this setup allow the pump to run for a minute or more to allow for proper cooling of the motor?

Thanks!

It could if you set the CSV at the same pressure as the on setting of the pressure switch. But with the CSV you don't need 1 minute of run time. For one thing the CSV makes the pump run for as long as you are using water, and does not let the pump shut off until you are finished using water. So 1 minute of run time is not usually a problem. Then when the CSV is filling the tank, the flow is only 1 GPM and the amps are reduced, so it doesn't take a minute to dissipate the heat like it does when the pump is continually cycling on and off at full amp draw.

 

[TVL]

It could if you set the CSV at the same pressure as the on setting of the pressure switch. But with the CSV you don't need 1 minute of run time. For one thing the CSV makes the pump run for as long as you are using water, and does not let the pump shut off until you are finished using water. So 1 minute of run time is not usually a problem. Then when the CSV is filling the tank, the flow is only 1 GPM and the amps are reduced, so it doesn't take a minute to dissipate the heat like it does when the pump is continually cycling on and off at full amp draw.

After I sent my question, I began thinking as I did some other things. Based on what I already knew about the Cycle Stop Valve from earlier research, it then dawned on me that the cycle stop valve would not allow the pump to cut off until water usage was LESS than 1 GPM or the pressure switch upper limit was met. At that point, I then realized that the pump would always be getting proper cooling. I'm sure there may be exceptions to the case, as you mentioned above, but from my reasoning it would be a very, very rare occurrence.

However, thanks for the reply as it reassured me my thinking was correct!

PS: You stated above: "Then when the CSV is filling the tank, the flow is only 1 GPM and the amps are reduced" Does this mean that if I were using water at the rate of 8 GPM and then completely cut off the flow, the Cycle Stop Valve would allow the tank to fill at a rate of only 1 GPM. I had assumed the tank would have filled at whatever rate the pump was capable of pumping water at?

 

[Reach4]

Does this mean that if I were using water at the rate of 8 GPM and then completely cut off the flow, the Cycle Stop Valve would allow the tank to fill at a rate of only 1 GPM.

Yes.

 

[Valveman]

With the CSV set at 50 PSI and using a 40/60 pressure switch, the CSV would let the tank fill at full pump rate up to 50 PSI. Then above 50 PSI the CSV would finish filling the tank at 1 GPM.

 

[TVL]

With the CSV set at 50 PSI and using a 40/60 pressure switch, the CSV would let the tank fill at full pump rate up to 50 PSI. Then above 50 PSI the CSV would finish filling the tank at 1 GPM.

Thanks again Valveman! But, here is where I am confused.

This well is used for irrigation purposes and an occasional car wash. The irrigation system has 16 zones and each zone is designed to use approximately 10 to 11 GPM. I track pressure readings for all zones. The zone with the lowest pressure reading is 41 PSI and the zone with the highest pressure reading is 53 PSI. What will occur when a zone is running above 50 PSI and I do have 4 zones like this. Does that mean there will not be sufficient flow above 50 PSI ????

 

[Valveman]

Thanks again Valveman! But, here is where I am confused.

This well is used for irrigation purposes and an occasional car wash. The irrigation system has 16 zones and each zone is designed to use approximately 10 to 11 GPM. I track pressure readings for all zones. The zone with the lowest pressure reading is 41 PSI and the zone with the highest pressure reading is 53 PSI. What will occur when a zone is running above 50 PSI and I do have 4 zones like this. Does that mean there will not be sufficient flow above 50 PSI ????

That is why your tank and pump have lasted so long. The irrigation is already set up to keep the pump from cycling. The sprinklers are using all the pump can produce.

CSV's are normally used when the zones are not large enough to keep the pump running. You can still use a CSV, and it will still let you use the smaller tank. But those big zones where you have been monitoring the pressure will see about 5 PSI less, because of the friction loss in the CSV. The CSV is just a piece of pipe and cannot do anything until the pressure gets up to 50 where it is set. So you would still get as much as the pump can produce, except for the 5 PSI friction loss.

You can take off one sprinkler per zone or put smaller nozzles in the sprinklers to get the pressure back up when using a CSV. With a little smaller zones, the CSV can keep the pressure at a constant 50 PSI for every zone. This usually gives a more precise and more efficient spray pattern.

Sometimes people will have most of the zones large enough to keep the pump from cycling, but they will have a zone or two that cause the pump to cycle. These are usually drip zones or something small that runs for long periods of time, and therefore cause lots of cycling on the pump. When they put in a CSV to stop the cycling on the small zones, they notice the 5 pSI or so loss in the larger zones. This is usually when they just install slightly smaller nozzles in those sprinkler heads, so the CSV can hold a constant pressure for all the zones.

 

[TVL]

Thanks Valveman for your time and the detailed explanation. It was very helpful! Based on your response, I'm thinking I really don't need a Cycle Stop Valve. And, if I were to use one, I would need to make some changes to the existing irrigation system, which I would rather not do.

Therefore, would you recommend the continued use of the existing Sears water tank when I relocate it later this year. If not, what brand and/or model number will give me as good as service as I have gotten with the present tank? And what size tank should I get if I go with the newer diaphragm design?

 

[Reach4]

You could adjust the CSV to 55 or 6o, and adjust the pressure switch and pressure tank accordingly. In that case, there should be be pretty much the same flow from your irrigation as now, since the CSV should be open while irrigating. At 60 on the CSV, the pressure switch would be 50/70 and the precharge would be 48.

For conventional tank use, see http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC7025_04_14_WXTsizingCard.pdf and you want the drawdown to cause the pump to take at least a minute to pump the drawdown amount.

The nominal pump rating will not exactly match what the pump puts out... but if the pump puts out 10 GPM, you would want a tank with at least 10 gallons of drawdown. Bigger and longer is even better.

 

[Valveman]

And what size tank should I get if I go with the newer diaphragm design?

Now if you use one of the plastic CSV12550-1 valves, it does not have any friction loss at 12 GPM, and you wouldn't need to make any changes to your irrigation system while still being able to use a $75 tank like the 4.5 gallon size. The CSV12550-1 would hold the pressure steady at 50 PSI (no cycling) when small amounts of water are being used, and would just open like a piece of pipe when using large zones so you would still have 43 or 41 PSI on those zones. The CSV12550-1 is only $63. We are working on a kit with one of these valves and the 4.5 gallon tank. I don't have a link to it yet but can get you one if you want. This kit will cost less and take up less space than a big tank, and will do a better job.

 

[TVL]

Now if you use one of the plastic CSV12550-1 valves, it does not have any friction loss at 12 GPM, and you wouldn't need to make any changes to your irrigation system while still being able to use a $75 tank like the 4.5 gallon size. The CSV12550-1 would hold the pressure steady at 50 PSI (no cycling) when small amounts of water are being used, and would just open like a piece of pipe when using large zones so you would still have 43 or 41 PSI on those zones. The CSV12550-1 is only $63. We are working on a kit with one of these valves and the 4.5 gallon tank. I don't have a link to it yet but can get you one if you want. This kit will cost less and take up less space than a big tank, and will do a better job.

OK, this sounds very interesting. If you don't mind answering a few other questions, I may just go this route.

1- Why one would type valve have friction loss and the plastic valve have none?

2- You stated: "it does not have any friction loss at 12 GPM". What about the few zones I have that at running at approximately 9.5 to 10.0 GPM? Or does friction loss come into play only when using MORE than 12 GPM?

3- I'm already using a 11.5 GPM Dole valve, which DID create a 5 PSI drop in pressure. I definitely prefer that whatever else I may add to the system, such as the Cycle Stop Valve, should NOT create any additional pressure losses? The plastic valve will meet this criteria?

 

[Valveman]

OK a 11.5 GPM Dole valve adds a whole other can of worms. Now I am thinking you have a 15-20 GPM pump, and the 11.5 gpm Dole valve is the only reason the pump is not cycling when using 11 + or - GPM zones. If you use anything much smaller than 11 GPM the pump will still cycle on/off. And the Dole valve is restricting your pressure on the larger zones.

So if your pump makes so much water without the Dole valve that it will cycle on/off when using the largest zone, you would not see the friction loss from ANY Cycle Stop Valve model. The only time you see friction loss with a CSV is when you are trying to use as much as the pump can produce, which I thought you were. If the pump makes more than any of your zones, you need some kind of restriction valve to keep the pump from cycling.

A Dole valve is set at a certain flow rate like the 11.5 GPM one you have. That means it is not enough restriction on zones smaller than 11.5 GPM and it is too much restriction on any zone that is more than 11.5 GPM.

A Cycle Stop Valve works like a variable Dole valve. It will adjust itself to the amount you are using. If you run a 6 GPM zone, the CSV turns into a 6 GPM restriction. If you use 14 GPM, the CSV adjust to 14 GPM. This way it always maintains 50 PSI no matter the size of the zone. So you don't lose any pressure on the large zones, and the small zones don't make the pump cycle on/off.

Plus when you stop using water, the CSV only lets the tank fill at 1 GPM, which is another reason why such a small tank works fine.

Now if you had a 11.5 GPM pump and all your zones where 11.5 GPM, the CSV1A would have 5 PSI of loss and the CSV125 would no have any loss. This is because the CSV125 is a larger valve and doesn't have as much restriction at 11.5 GPM as the smaller CSV1A. But because you would be replacing a Dole valve with the CSV, I doubt that you would see any loss even with the CSV1A.

 

[TVL]

OK a 11.5 GPM Dole valve adds a whole other can of worms. Now I am thinking you have a 15-20 GPM pump, and the 11.5 gpm Dole valve is the only reason the pump is not cycling when using 11 + or - GPM zones.

Long story short: In 2013 I was having issues with my well not producing normally (it would not run the irrigation system properly - not enough water). At that time we installed a smaller size Dole (6 GPM I think), to protect the pump as well as a Pumptec control box. In the meantime we speculated the well screen had become plugged over the 35 year period it had been used. Blowing the well out provided little improvement, so I moved over 15 feet and had another well drilled. Turned out to be the same depth, which means it's probably in the same aquifer.

Once drilled, we decided to limit the pump to no more than was required by the irrigation system by changing the Dole valve to a 11.5 GPM model. The pump info is attached in the photo and I believe it is a 10 GPM pump, but it did seem to have the capability to pump a little more, so that is why the Dole valve was added ................. as insurance to ensure no more than 11.5 GPM was ever pumped at any one time ............ again, insurance for the protection of the well. As info the pump hangs approximately 139 feet and the static water level is 111 feet. Total well depth is 150 feet.

 

[Valveman]

I looked up that pump and it can produce 13 GPM from 111' and 50 PSI. So it will pump more than your largest zone, which would cause the pump to cycle on/off. The 11.5 GPM Dole valve keeps the pump from cycling but you lose 5 PSI. If you put a CSV12550-1 in place of that Dole valve, it will hold 50 PSI steady for every zone. As long as none of the zones are larger than 11.5 GPM, the CSV will act like a variable Dole valve, keep the pump from cycling on small zones, and protect the pump from producing anymore than 11.5 GPM.

 

[TVL]

Thanks so very much Valveman! You have been very helpful!