Shallow Well to Feed My Cistern

Users who are viewing this thread

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
Hello,

I want to dig / install a shallow well to feed my cistern (which in-turn feeds my irrigation system). I have water just under my basement. (house was on a slab, we've installed a basement albeit a bit shallow (7.5 - 8 ft ft, but 1' of that is because we raised the land and a another 1.5' is above ground) and a lot of means to control the water which has been effective now for going on 2.5-years (including back-up generator).

Is it plausible (or dare I say 'advisable') to dig one of my sump basins a bit deeper (say 3', 4', or 5' deep and 10-11" diameter) and use a sump pump to fill the tank when it is called for?

Or might it be better to drive a well-point 8-10' or whatever may be required?

I like the sump pump approach because it puts everything below the ground fairly easily (assuming I can dig the hole deep enough to get a reliable flow of water, at a reasonable volume).

Some points:
  • Cistern can easily support irrigation cycle, so there is no need for the tank to rapidly fill, just to get filled reliably, and efficiently before the next cycle (normally 3x per week, but let's say w/in 24 hours). Water pressure is also of marginal concern (beyond enough pressure to bring the water up the riser which would be 15' or less - maybe much less).
  • Cistern is already connected to my sump system (as well as downspouts) - and sends water elsewhere if it get overfilled.
  • I've already put in-place a means for the cistern to 'call' for water (float valve in cistern activates an electric line currently in my basement).
  • Current sump basin is 18" diameter
  • No septic system for my home or in my neighborhood (we're all on city water and septic)

Would love thoughts of folks on this forum before I go and do something less than wise . . .

Many thanks.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,749
Reaction score
4,400
Points
113
Location
IL
Are you saying that your sump basins do not currently have sump pumps, or are you saying that you want to increase the water yield by going deeper?

Sand points are not suitable for many places. Do you have reason to believe that your spot in Massachusetts is suitable for a sand point? I like your deeper sump idea better. Do your drilling in the dry season, and expect to have to deal with water during digging anyway.

If your cistern cannot handle overflows gracefully, you would want float switches for the main sump pump to be in series -- one in the pit, and one in the cistern. That way water would flow to the cistern if there was room, and if there is water in the pit. In that case, you would want a second sump pump, set higher, that would pump excess water out to a place that will be suitable even in freezing weather.
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
Thanks for the replies,

My basin has pumps (2 actually, a high pump and a low one). I'm trying to increase the water yield by going lower.

I don't trust that the ground is suitable for a sand point. I know my neighbor had a shallow well, but I don't know if it was a sand point and they are long gone. That's one reason I'm leaning to deepening the pit. The other is the sand point would be a bit more complicated installation for me. Maybe not more difficult in the end, but requiring more study. Also, the pit approach is a lower upfront investment and 'reversable' for lack of a better term.

Spot on regarding control of overflow. I have 2-means to divert water if the cistern gets overwhelmed. One is a valve connected to my pump control box that activates a spigot (a 'water box' actually) which I can send to the storm drain (essentially down the driveway). This can't be used during the frost season though obviously. Alternatively, I have a diverter on the riser that runs to the cistern and enough PVC to get it away from the house.

So I'm going with the deepening for a first pass. and Valveman, agree, I won't be able to figure out the right pump and right circumference until I can test it . . .

Now as to how to go about the 'drilling' . . . I think I'll start with an old fashioned post hole digger and see how far I can take it. The challenge I'm wondering is how to deal with the fact that water will be flowing into the hole possibly at a fare clip and I need to prevent undermining my basement slab if the sides want to fall-in as I'm digging.

Is there a 'recommended' approach to digging a sump basin in these conditions?

Thanks again for the time to provide some knowledge and ideas,
Buczar
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,749
Reaction score
4,400
Points
113
Location
IL
When I dug a sump, I did not go so deep. And I had a dry season. I put a liner in, and put pea gravel around the outer part of the liner. If you use a liner, you have to figure out how to hold it in place while the concrete at the top hardens. Otherwise it will float up.

After getting the liner in place, I drilled mainly 1/4 inch holes to let the the water in. I put my holes mostly at the level of the gravel under the floor.

I dug mine under a stair landing, so I did not have as much overhead space. I used a stand-on bulb planter to remove cylinders of dirt. Since you have the overhead space, your idea of the fence hole digger sounds good. I think you will need to pump water out as you go.
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
Yep, this is going to be interesting. Sand, water, and a lot of stone (what did I think id find in New England) do not work well with a post hole digger!

I read that one way to dig in water is to use the / a basin with holes to displace the dirt as you go down and pump it out. Still may not work well when I hit the bfr. I'm going to give it a try though.

For giggles, I was able to drive a 1.25 inch pvc with relative ease. I may be trying that sand point by Sunday...

Jim
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
Nope. This approach isn't going to work. all I'm going to do is end-up undermining my slab or my foundation or both. A driven well may be the only solution. I don't even think I need anything but the well point and a couple of feet of pipe. The water is 'right here'.

Can a driven well be that shallow?
What is a good low-volume pump to use to draw the water? (I have 7 feet rise, an elbow, and 40-ft horizontal to the tank, so my bet is just about 'any' pump will do)?
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
I have the well point, joints, and several lengths of pipe. If I'm at the water level how deep do I need to go? If I drive the top of the point 3ft below water is that sufficient? (The screen is 36" so if I go 3ft to the top the base will be 6ft below water table, the top 3ft). I can't see the water table descending that much...
 

Boycedrilling

In the Trades
Messages
837
Reaction score
185
Points
43
Location
Royal City, WA
Trial and error my friend. It depends on the tranmissivity of the material you are in. A clean sand or gravel will yield much more water than a material with silt or clay. Many alluvial aquifers yield 3 to 5 gom per foot of drawdown. However I have drilled wells that produce less than 1/2 gpm to wells that produce 2200 gpm with 7 ft of drawdown
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
Trial and error it will be.

Ok, thinking ahead, 1/2 hp pump? 3/4? (I can't imagine a 1 hp being necessary). All I need is rise about 7ft and push it 40 ft where it will empty into my tank. The only reason I would think a higher hp may be better would be to fill the tank faster ... What questions should I be asking?

And for those of you with experience... Good pump brands? All I'm sure of is no big box brands...

Thanks as always.
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
And before I get going... Any reason why I shouldn't be stacking 2 screens together giving me 6ft of screen? 2x is better than one, no?
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
And also before I get going...should I be putting the check valve near the screen (a foot valve i think it is called there).
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,583
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Driving extra screen down into soil that cannot supply water will not help. But you can keep driving them in if the soil that deep will produce water. You either need to get the top of the screen deep enough to seal and not suck air, or that is as deep as you can draw the water. Or you can put a smaller suction pipe with a foot valve inside the screen if it is large enough. A 1/2HP pump will probably do more than you can get through the screen.
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
I did it! I drove my point today. Thanks for all of the guidance!

So, hopefully I didn't screw it up, but I 'developed' it a bit (I think the right term) using a hose to flush out the fine particles. I started out being able to barely put a trickle in the pipe after the first flush, and by the end could put about 3.5 gpm. Am I done? Am i supposed to be shooting for 5 gpm (putting water in not taking it out, I don't have a pump yet)? Will it increase if I continue to develop it?

the top of my 36" screen is just under 60" from the top of my water line. I'm fairly sure I have more to go if I wanted to . . . is another 20 or 40 inches better? And if I drive it more, did I hurt it by developing it?

And if anyone sells pumps and ships to MA, let me know. Valveman, I already have a CSV in the cistern system you helped me with last year . . . your site doesn't say anything about pumps though. You all give great advice, I'd like to try to pay it back if I can. . .

Jim
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
Yep. I need a pump. Goulds J5S? (1/2 hp). I want a good pump and have seen some of you mention that one. It is more expensive, but that is fine unless getting the pump up and running is going to ruin it , or if I can only pull 4ish gpm is going to burn it out quickly.

How loud is it relative to other pumps?

I see online prices in range of 279.00 shipped. Is that about right? Know an honest supplier?

Thanks,
Jim
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
14,583
Reaction score
1,296
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
J5S is a good pump, and that is a really good price. That is about what I can buy one for as a contractor. People on the Internet are cutting each others throats. Selling pumps to make 20 bucks makes it hard for pump companies to stay in business. The same guys would sell that pump locally and installed for over 500 bucks. But they also put it on the Internet and think an extra 20 is a little gravy money. This is fine for Do It Yourselfers, just don't ask a contractor to install a pump you bought on the Internet cheaply.
 

Buczar

Member
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Location
MA
Done. Pump is on its way.

In the meantime, I'm going to go at least another 40" (because that is the pipe that I have left) down. Hopefully, I will test it this weekend if the pump arrives.

I've attached schematic for my pump set-up if anyone would like to advise.

One question I have: Should I include a pressure and/or flow indicator?

Well Pump Diagram.png
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,749
Reaction score
4,400
Points
113
Location
IL
You want a pressure gauge at the (pressure tank+pressure switch).

I suspect you have 1 or 2 to many check valves shown, but I could be wrong. I don't know jet pumps.


Well valve -- is that a jet pump thing?
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks