Sewer Gas in Shower

[Geniescience]

make it act like a tub

kim

buy a rubber stopper. glue it down over the shower drain. Fill the shower pan as if it were a tub. Right to the brim. Stop the shower. Wait a minute. Still no smell? Then, open the shower drain. Wait for it to drain. Run no other water anywhere else. What happens? Smell or no smell? Gurgling noises?

This will help isolate the problem. Helps define the limits. Hope you agree.

 

[Bob NH]

You don't need to glue it down. A 1/2" of water will apply pressure to keep the stopper down, and after it is filled, it will be a lot easier to pull it up.

Any kind of flexible material, such as from a plastic grocery bag, will seal a shower drain when there is water in it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Geniescience]

just a gluestick kind of glue.

true, and thank you. To keep the experience simple, put a plastic bag over the drain.

if you use a little glue you are more able to claim later that it was sealed good enough right from the beginning that no water got down the drain until you chose to let it do so.

David

 

[Kim]

Kim

Which way is "down" to the stack? Is the shower the last or the first, or do you know which 'unit' is first, second, etc?

Norcal in post #26 above mentioned a good idea, a possibility. A vent has to be on the side of the P-trap downwards towards the stack. Does your shower only produce bad air when running, and only when running and at no other time? How are you able to tell it is only from the shower drain?

David

I do not know what "down" to the stack means - or 1st, 2nd etcetera. I can only see a drain and a p-trap full of water (if I take off the metal thing and shine a flashlight down there). The entire shower stall is tiled from floor to ceiling. I can't see anything that has to do with pipes!

I feel that it is only the shower drain that smells because I can not smell it at any of the other drains. The shower is seperate and has a glass shower door that forms a pretty tight seal. The smell can only escape at the top of the door through a 5" opening.

The shower only smells when you are IN THE SHOWER - TAKING A SHOWER and the water is draining. It takes about 10 to 15 minutes for it to start smelling, but when it starts - it gets increasingly worse (nauseating). It does not smell at any other time and I keep a small, flat, rubber drain plug laying on the drain at all times. That keeps the smell out.

Somebody, shoot me!! Put her out of her misery!!

 

[Chris8796]

It does not smell at any other time and I keep a small, flat, rubber drain plug laying on the drain at all times. That keeps the smell out.

Your description is confusing, does the drain smell when the shower is not in use (without the rubber drain plug on)?

 

[Toolaholic]

this is all insane

call a realestate attorney! this was not obviously disclosed at time of sale.

this is an existing condition from the builder. I would imagine builder and
seller would be named in suit. you will eventually open walls and floor.
slow down and use your head. good luck Tool

 

[Mikey]

Fun in the shower

The next time you take a shower, take off the metal drain first, and when the smell becomes apparent, shine the light down the drain again and see if you still see a P-trap full of water. You will probably see a decidedly lower water level, with bubbles of sewer gas burping back into the shower.

If that's the case, the shower drain is not properly vented. I'd get the camera guy back and have him determine the plumbing layout by inspecting the inside of all drains in the area. He should be able to see a vent within a few feet of the shower P-trap. If it isn't there, then call the attorney, drywall guy, tile guy, etc.

If it is there, find out where it goes and make sure it isn't blocked. A snake shoved down from the roof should eventually make its way into the drain pipe and be seen by the camera, although the actual vent layout may make it impossible to snake that run directly.

 

[Geniescience]

hi again.

so sorry this thread appears to be frustrating you.

Kim the last five posts say a lot.

one guy points out to you that your description is confusing. It is. It is, it really is. Either the rubber stopper is put there for psychological reasons or because the smell comes out when the shower is not ON.

Another guy tells you in his own words that you will see bubbles or air coming back out the P-trap. His description is good. Very good. Please please don't spend money on lawyers or even on more plumbers until you do the simple test / look / experiment. And then, you will have isolated the thing so well that even your description of the problem will appear to all to be accurate and sufficient.

My using the term "Down" was not good. Which way, left or right on the diagram, is your stack? Where is it closest? Which thing is closer? Forget first, second, third. Closer to the stack, next closest, etc.

That is the best i can do. Bye for now.

david

 

[Toolaholic]

KIM from what you've said ,this sounds like a design, build

.problem . one or more things were done VERY wrong. you've had plumbers out with no results. You are entitled to a HEALTHY, working plumbing system. I am a gen contr. that does all his own plumbing. this is my 44th
year in the trades. I don't like lawers! If you were one of my 3 dauhters, this is the advice I'd give. just a letter from a lawer will bring the people responsible for this mess to your door . be well tool

 

[Casman]

Q for toolaholic

Why do you not like lawers?

 

[Kim]

hi again.

one guy points out to you that your description is confusing. It is. It is, it really is. Either the rubber stopper is put there for psychological reasons or because the smell comes out when the shower is not ON.

Another guy tells you in his own words that you will see bubbles or air coming back out the P-trap. His description is good. Very good. Please please don't spend money on lawyers or even on more plumbers until you do the simple test / look / experiment. And then, you will have isolated the thing so well that even your description of the problem will appear to all to be accurate and sufficient.

david

I understand that I have confused you guys! The rubber cover that I put over the drain helps to stop the gas after it has already started coning up.
After every remedy we have tried, I will take a shower and sadly, I get the smell. So, probably for psychological reasons, I put the rubbe thing on top to stop what else might be in there.

Anyway, the plumber was here yesterday and he read all of these comments. Of course, he ruled out some things and got ideas by others. I think what he has decided is that it is in fact a problem with the tub and shower drains. He could hear the water draining form the tub and he said it should not make that fast of a draining noise. He feels that the shower or tub or both drains are sloped too far causing the water to be pulled from the p-trap in the shower. It doesn't siphon it completely, it only sucks the water down far enough to allow gas to squeeze through the small space. When we took the metal drain cover off of the shower, ran the tub and watched the trap, it moved up and down slightly. Then the gas began to come in. He said that we would need to jackhammer the floor where the drain from the shower leads to the drain to the tub and check the slope of the pipe. Will this be enough to find the problem or can it lead to other problems?

Does this sound right?

FYI, I asked him to install one of those drain things (that allows water to drain slowly through while keeping out the gas). Just so you know, it didn't work for me. The bottom of the shower held about 2 inches of water at all times. Then, after the shower, it finally all drained out. Guess what? SEWER SMELL when completely drained.

 

[Kim]

message for toolaholic

Attorneys can be a good tool. I have spoken with one who seems pretty aggressive. He feels that we need to have a plan to repair the shower before we send the builder/previous owner a letter.

Unfortunately, there were other problems with the house (a hole in the AC that was blowing insulation into the house, gaps in the sheetrock that allowed 2" gaps into the attic, and rerouting of the water lines through the attic with PEX) We do not know what relation the water rerouting has with the shower problem, if any. I have been told that a slab leak could cause them to reroute the water. I guess you don't know how they are related until you bust up the floor. What do you think the chances are that the builder will cough up that information??

Boy, I wish I had a dad like you to help me with these people!!

 

[Geniescience]

kim

it does seem to me to be a good hypothesis, that a P-trap is getting partially sucked dry, by the slope of the drain after the P-trap. It is a possibility. It is one possible explanation.

Before destroying the floor, you have time. Please try one of the experiments i described, where you block the tub drain, the shower drain, etc. You never know in advance what the outcome will be. If you find at least one way to prevent the smell, you'll have that much more information which helps everyone else involved to understand where the problem is, why it happens, and what to do to fix it.

 

[Chris8796]

I'm not sold on his idea yet. It doesn't explain why the shower smells when the shower is running and the tube is not in use.

I think the problem is with the venting of the shower. I know you checked for obstructions with a camera, but could you see all the way back where it attached to the leg of the shower drain? Or have you gone from the p-trap to the vent?

Its seems no matter what you will be jack hammering the floor. I would have the lawyer send a letter with your receipts of 6 plumber visits and give them the option of fixing it. If they don't act, pay the plumber to jack hammer the floor and treat it as a civil case. Take alot of pictures and 6 plumber visits, camera tests, smoke tests, etc shows more than good faith on your part to solve the problem reasonably.

Let us know how it turns out, after the jackhammer dust settles.

good luck

 

[Mikey]

I'm with Chris8796. The "too much slope" theory sounds bo-o-o-gus to me. I also don't completely rule out a relationship between the overhead re-plumb job and the failure of the shower drain/vent system, if indeed it was a failure (as opposed to a bad design/installation in the first place).

Irregardless (one of my favorite non-words) of all our suggestions, opinions, thoughts, etc., this has been a fine mystery. I can't wait for the thrillling finish, even if it does involve lawyers. Take lots of pictures before, during, and after the jackhammering phase. Be sure to keep us up to date.

 

[Toolaholic]

Kim and Casman

Kim daughter #3 owns a plumbing and heating co in wash. state with Her husband. I 'm in n. ca. I love to have them call Dad with house questions. If you're near me,send a p.m.

Casman, ask the plaintiff in Maryland why folks don't care for lawers.

 

[Geniescience]

Testing the excessive-slope hypothesis

kim

to test specifically that hypothesis, here is how.

dribble water into the shower drain. If no smell happens, the hypothesis is looking like it may be true. Use a watering can to control how much water goes down the drain. Finally, once you are sure there is no smell, increase the flow of water until you do get the smell. Remember that amount of flow. Report back here for your next assignment.

David

 

[Mikey]

Actually, you're testing the basic question of whether the P-trap siphoning is dependent on flow, which is almost certainly true. There are other possible causes for that than excessive slope.

 

[Geniescience]

yes

true. more than one cause possible.

david

 

[Kim]

I am not sure where to go from here. With all of these tests, it seems that the only way to find this problem is to start tearing up the floor and shower. It is aggressive, but I am desperate to get this resolved.

My thinking is this - It is obvious that this was a problem that the previous owners had. They were still under the builders warranty so the builder had to know, also. It is apparent by the hole in the wall (by the auto vent) that they were searching for the problem as well. They all knew. I will probably have to search further (by busting up the bathroom) and repair the problem. Then, I will make one or both of them pay all damages, by legal means.

There simply is no other way to handle it.

My biggest concern is this - we bust up the bathroom, check the slope, p-trap, venting, etc. All of the things seem to be repaired and in proper order. What if there still is a smell and it is caused by something that happened to reroute the plumbing. Then it could be even more repairs and could go on and on!!