sewage ejection system for new home

[ptcarpenter]

I am going to be building a 3 bedroom home for my wife and myself this summer. I plan on doing all of the work including plumbing/electrical myself. It is in southern Maine and in an area with lots of bedrock close to surface. I need to get our sewage up a slight/steady incline about 150' to the municipal sewer line. I am assuming I need a sewage ejection system, but I am curious about the best system to install.

-Will the 2" waste line be filled with sewage from the check valve all the way to the municipal sewer line all the time? Or do they make a pump that can clear the line? (my fear is freezing, since I wn't be able to bury below frost, but I will insulate the line to the extreme)

-Should there be a secondary pump at the juction of my waste line and the municipal line to clear the 150' line so it is more resistant to freezing?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be VERY appreciated.....Thanks!!!!

 

[Dlarrivee]

Why would you insulate the waste line? Insulating pipe that isn't below the frost line wont stop it from freezing, you would need heat tracing for that.

Why would any waste line be full of standing sewage? The pipe must be sloped properly just like ANY other drain piping...

I'm sort of chuckling when you say you're going to do all the plumbing and electrical on your own...

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hj]

quote; Why would any waste line be full of standing sewage? The pipe must be sloped properly just like ANY other drain piping...

IF the line goes uphill all the way to the sewer, it CANNOT be "sloped properly". Since this will be a "whole house" system, you need a duplex pump system with alternate operation. It MUST have a high water level override of the alternator, and a high water alarm. In addition, you should have an electric valve on the water line to the house wired to the high water alarm so that when it goes off, meaning you are about to be flooded, the water is shut off so you cannot use any more water, because if you did use water, that WOULD cause the flood.

 

[Basement_Lurker]

I suggest, at the very least, that you pay to have this designed for you properly. There are so many unknown issues with this installation that I can't believe you would even think of attempting it yourself.

 

[Gary Swart]

Just to support Basement Lurker's comments, I would urge you to get professional help here. DIY is great for many things, be all of us reach a point were we are in over our heads. There is so much technical information that goes into something like you are looking at that I fear you will be overwhelmed. If you should somehow put something together and it failed, you would be in far deeper expense than if you just make sure it is done right now.

 

[ptcarpenter]

I appreciate the comments. I fear that people are not focusing on the questions, and instead focusing on cautioning me to not get in over my head. Let me be clear......I am a skilled tradesman that has built many houses from foundation to finish and have good plumbing/electrical skills. I will be hiring a master plumber and electrician on a part time basis for guidance/help as needed on this project. I thought I could get a head start by picking the brain of some skilled professionals on this forum. So if you are only going to caution me to hire a professional for design/implementation....than don't waste your time posting. If you have insight into this sort of sewage ejection system, please pass on some of your valuable knowledge and it will be greatly appreciated.

To address "Dlarivee," you don't need to chuckle in regard to my do it yourself attitude, as I am more than capable of handling the scope of this project. But let's not pretend that someone must be "all-knowing" to be competent for an upcoming project.....That would just be egotistical. And your responses don't make sense, as of course insulating lines that aren't below frost line inhibits freezing! There are numerous engineering reports explainging that frost comes from above and insulating sides and topes of lines will use the Earth's natural heat source to help keep lines from freezing. And as "hj" kindly pointed out, my situation involves bring our sewage up an incline to the junction of the municipal main line, so this will be a pressurized system, NOT gravity fed.....

To clarify my question: I am under the impression that a sewage ejector system in our utility room will not be able to clear the 2" waste line that will run 150' up hill to the municipal line because pumps can't push air behind the sewage in order to clear the line. But perhaps I am wrong in this assumption! Just curious if anyone has ever installed a system like this before.....

Thank you "hj" for your reccomendations, as they were helpful.....

 

[Dlarrivee]

So you plan to insulate only the side and top of the piping?

 

[Cacher_Chick]

So you plan to insulate only the side and top of the piping?

Doing so is a code requirement here.

I have no experience with such an installation, but I have heard of homes that use a pneumatic ejector to clear the line of waste when the municipal sewer is above the level of of the home.

 

[Dlarrivee]

He didn't clarify.

 

[Redwood]

Yes, your line will remain full and be subject to freezing.

You really have 2 choices here.

• Get a blasting contactor and get the trench to go below the frost line where it will not freeze.
  
• Trench and bury the line then place fill on top to get it to the proper depth where it will not freeze.

 

[Ballvalve]

Pros that chuckle at someone that wants to WORK are not pro's at all but low level Joe's.

And I have to chuckle at someone that does'nt know that water does not run uphill and not back downhill with a checkvalve.

You have a simple option, One large precast or plastic basin of 3 to 500 gallons, with a top quality Zoeller grinder pump. NO check valve and absolutely the smallest pipe size that will take the slurry. Probably 1.25". Ask Zoeller. Now the pipe drains down and will not freeze.

And yet a better option, a Septic tank and a cheaper effluent pump in the second chamber .Filter the outlet per previous threads if you wish to keep from plugging the pipe. Now you can use 1" line and NO check valve because you are pumping fairly clear water.

Each time the pump shuts off in this case, you "backwash" your effluent filter brushes too. And the impeller.

Cheaper than blasting, heat tape or super insulating, and fairly foolproof.

I do not see any need for a Duplex system under these parameters, thus you may come out ahead in cost anyway.

Been there , done that.

Talk about a pneumatic ejector and you better be a water district with deep pockets.

If you do the small septic tank [@$1000 here] I would use a jointless run of 200PSI black poly pipe. Bombproof and freezeproof.

I speak of smaller pipe, as you likely understand, to keep the drain back to a minimum.

 

[hj]

ejector pumps do not only will NOT pump air, but the presence of air in them will PREVENT them from pumping. ANYONE who has a simplex system for a whole house will tell you the inconvenience when it fails and they cannot use their plumbing until it is repaired or replace. THAT is why they should have a duplex system. And we CANNOT have a "septic system" when there is a municipal sewer system available.

 

[Ballvalve]

I did not say to have a septic system, I said use a small septic tank to eliminate solids and to pump from the second chamber.

Or to use a large single chamber and a grinder pump.

I never suggested to pump air. the system will drain down several gallons per pump run, but since its a LARGE chamber, its fairly irrelevant.

Pump on, 100 or more gallons up the hill, pump off, 4 or 5 or so gallons back down the hill.

Whats the beef? Its outside, duplex make sense when they are in your recreation room.

Using the septic tank, you can even use a dedicated cistern submersible pump from pentair for about 300 bucks, a motor OVER muti stage pump that can use the small 1" line.

I think the best duplex system is one pump in the tank and one in the garage waiting for a quick swap.

 

[ptcarpenter]

Ahhh.....Now we are getting some good posts! Thanks for the suggestions "hj" and "ballvalve." Let me clarify the situation more in regards to septic vs sewage ejection system. The house will be on a small 1/2 acre lot in southern maine with ledge/bedrock everywhere at surface level. We actually have the option of septic OR municipal sewer, but after having a civil engineer come evaluate for septic, he said it could be an option but we may need blasting and a non-conventional system installed. We have decided to avoid the wild card situation and not "hope" that we don't run into more problems with septic installation, and INSTEAD we are opting for municipal sewer system. NOW.....the municipal line in 150' uphill (about 5'of elevation change), but we are trying to avoid blasting if possible.

I am in favor of the duplex system and although I appreciate the suggestion, I don't think a septic tank installation/municipal system hybrid would be advantageous, because if we were to put in a septic tank, we would just go ahead and install the leech field with it and save the yearly cost of municipal services. Again.....my MAIN concern has been weather or not I can clear a discharge line from the sewage ejection tank in my utility room when that 2" discharge pipe will be running uphill. Sounds like I may need to let it be filled with slurry and just insulate the heck out of it to prevent freezing!

Any other (positive/proactive) thoughts are always welcome and appreciated......Thanks!

 

[ptcarpenter]

To answer "Dlarrivee"........

Yes....Engineering reports show that by creating an inverted "U" with rigid insulation around buried utility lines will prevent freezing even if lines are above frost line, assuming you use enough insulation.....2" of rigid closed cell foam is equivelent to 1 foot of earth. Frost comes from cold penetrating the Earth from ABOVE.....so you actually DON'T want insulation below your lines or you would be keeping out the Earth's natural heat source of 50 degrees F.....

 

[Ballvalve]

Pipe with an ID of about 1.5 gives me only about 8 0r 10 gallons in 150' if my calcs are correct. So use a large basin [try a plastics tank business] and let it drain back down.

You could very cheaply add a run of 3/8 or 1/2" pex that was normally empty and run warm water through the loop when it gets very cold. It can be taped to the bottom of the pipe, and even used as a "saviour" if the sewer line does freeze.

Use 2" POLY pipe, its about the only thing that will not break when frozen. And they WILL freeze at some point in time. In rock, insulation only buys a little time.

What is your cost analysis between the muni and the septic? If you have septic bids...

 

[ptcarpenter]

That's an interesting idea, to drain the effluent back into the basin. I think I have decided to do a frost shield with XPS foam and then bury with as much backfill as grade allows. But it may be worth running some heat tape around it before i bury it just for insurance or in case of freeze up. Thanks for the ideas.....

 

[Ballvalve]

Heat tape is very expensive if you look for 150'. A loop of pipe for running warm water through in an emergency is quite cheap.

Draining back 10 gallons of effluent is worth only a tiny fraction of a penny. And foolproof. And no cost for foam.