Setting pump with poly pipe at 400'

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Odysseus99

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My well is drilled, my driller is reluctant to set a pump with poly because he is a die-hard PVC guy. I don't want to use PVC because of chemicals but also because it becomes brittle with time. So I am considering setting a pump myself using poly. Here's my plan, please comment as you wish:

Well depth is 400', static level 295 feet, 6" steel casing the full depth of the well, pump to be set at 380'. I plan to buy 300psi poly pipe and locate a backflow every 200' along the pipe (one in the middle, one at the pitless, one at the pump.) I plan to locate a wheel just above the top of the casing, perhaps a motorcycle wheel, so the pipe can be lowered from the horizontal over the wheel. A stainless cable will be attached to the pump. A heavy wood frame will be needed to hold the wheel.

I will lower the pump with my pickup. I'll attach the stainless cable to the truck hitch with a cam lock 75' away, and use a vise-grip type poly clamp (from Dean Bennett) as well, so I'll be gripping both the cable and the pipe. Back up the truck 75' toward the well head lowering the pipe, then secure the cable and the pipe at the head with a second cam lock and poly clamp, release the truck, drive it forward 75' again, roll out more pipe, wire and cable, reattach, release the locks at the head, lower again, etc.

So, myself and my helpers never lift or lower by hand the weight of the pump, pipe, wire and cable until it comes time to set the pitless. Just before the top end of the pipe goes over the wheel we attach a T handle to the pitless fitting, and continue lowering with the cable until the T handle rests (gently) on the casing. Then we have to lift by hand to set the pitless.

Sound feasible?

Got a source for cam locks?

Pump size is a different issue, for another thread. Thanks.
 

Valveman

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I have been reading up on the PVC plasticizer migration issue. It looks like the biggest problem is with the flexible PVC like Spa-Flex, not with rigid PVC. There are a lot of chemicals released during manufacture of PVC, which needs to be addressed at and by the factories. But I don’t think there is much cause for concern with rigid pipe after installation. I can see where new pipe releases some chemicals for a while, and the migration becomes less and less as the pipe ages.

Most of the PVC pipe I installed pumps on in the late 70’s and early 80’s is still in wells and working fine. I have even rethreaded some of that pipe recently and didn’t notice any brittle characteristics. I have also been drinking water from those same pipes for 40+ years now, and I am not dead yet. The same thing goes for PVC well casing.
Your plan for installing the poly looks OK. But if anything slips or breaks it could make a real mess. And that last part about lifting the pump by hand to stab the pitless ain’t gonna happen. You will need some kind of hoist or wench for that.

You know what they say about the best-laid plan. I think PVC for a well that deep is best, and it will still be working fine long after we are all dead.
 

Craigpump

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You're concerned about the pipe, but did you know there are chemicals, (light petroleum distillates) in the adhesives in most electrical tape that leach into the water? If your really concerned about the chemicals in PVC, buy galvanized or stainless drop pipe.

I've never seen 300psi poly, but I've handled miles of 200 psi so I can just imagine how tough 300 psi material will be to work with. Furthermore, a 400' roll of poly is pretty heavy combine that with 75 lbs of wire a 40 lbs pump and its gonna be so heavy you won't be able to safely handle it.

You don't want or need 2 additional "backflows" unless you like water hammer.

Stainless cable while better than a "safety rope" is a problem waiting to happen, if it was to ever drop down the well, you might never get it, the pump, pipe and wire back out.

You let this driller do your job based on his knowledge, experience and quality of work, why question him now?
 

Valveman

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You don't want or need 2 additional "backflows" unless you like water hammer.


Yeah the only check valve you want is the one on the pump.

You let this driller do your job based on his knowledge, experience and quality of work, why question him now?


I think it is always good to question contractors and get multiple opinions. But when you can’t find a single contractor who agrees with you, you may want to reconsider the options.
 

Boycedrilling

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Brittleness in PVC pipe is caused by UV degradation from sunlight. If it is not exposed to sunlight, it does not become brittle.
 

Odysseus99

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Craigpump- my driller was highly experienced in drilling, but I don't think that experience extends to knowing what the long term effects of leached chemicals in PVC are in humans. Of all the plastics, according to what I've read, PVC is the worst in terms of the amount of plasticizers they have to put in it to make it work. Poly has almost none, because the basic material is inert and doesn't require it. The European Union is phasing out PVC and you won't be able to buy it there in 15-20 years. We will eventually follow suit, I don't want to be one of the many stuck with the 'old technology'. My driller is understandably defensive about it because he's been installing PVC casings and drop pipes for decades and doesn't want the implication left that he's been doing something wrong. He hasn't in my view- he is using approved and accepted materials, but still you have to look at what the science says as things change and research looks deeper into our widespread use of oil products.

But aside from that issue, there is just the simple mechanics of lowering 400 feet of pipe into a well casing be it poly or some type of rigid, and an experienced hand will stand a better chance of doing the job right.

That said, I heard an interesting story about my driller from first hand experience. I spoke to someone who had them drill his well and set his pump. They set the pump with PVC drop pipe, and no safety rope. Somehow a joint on the PVC broke and the pump dropped, the well was useless. So, to their credit, they drilled a second hole, but they tried to bill the owner for part of the cost of the first bore hole, which he refused to pay. Should the owner pay for their error?

This is an experienced driller operating in the area for decades, and respected by the locals generally. So anyway even experienced pros goof sometimes.
 

Boycedrilling

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Odysseus, can you give the citations or references you mention about problems with PVC pipe. There is a huge quantity of unfounded and in accurate information on every subject on the Internet. Without being able to review the validity of your references that you cite, I can give little or no credence to them
 

Craigpump

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Hmmmmm,

I have never seen a well abandoned because there was some PVC pipe, wire and a pump dropped into it, there has to be more to the story than we know.

Cary & I both presented a case as to why the job should be done a certain way from both a safety and ease of future service standpoint which is based on our real world, in the field experiences. I've offered two additional alternatives, galvanized or stainless steel drop pipe that can be used to alleviate your fears of chemicals in the PVC.

I made you aware of the petroleum distillates that have been found in well water that was directly traced to electrical tape adhesives.

I brought to your attention the potential issues of using a "safety rope" or cable, and how if either one ever got loose and dropped into the well they could stick the pump, pipe and wire.

Somewhere I've got pic posted on this site of a pump with the wire all wadded up around it. That guy thought he could do pump work also.


Good luck
 
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LLigetfa

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One would think that if PVC were as bad as the OP claims, it would already be banned in California. Look what they did with brass.
 

Valveman

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You probably get more exposure to those chemicals from the “new car smell” of one car than a lifetime of drinking from PVC pipes.

Yeah it sounds like another one of those things that is more political motivation than common sense. California always falls for anything that looks “green”. Then because California did it, it must be right, and the rest of us get stuck with it as well.

We will all be paying the rest of our lives for what they did to brass, and we are not one bit safer. Brass in pumps was never a problem until a big company that makes Stainless Steel pumps told us brass was bad.

Makes me wonder if a big manufacturer of Poly is doing the same thing to PVC.
 

Craigpump

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Makes you wonder,
People come on, ask for input from those who actually do the work and then dispute the advice they are given.

He probably got a quote from his driller for $$$$$ and said to himself I can do that with lesser grade materials for $$, now I just have to figure out how
 

akcooper9

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Makes you wonder,
People come on, ask for input from those who actually do the work and then dispute the advice they are given.

He probably got a quote from his driller for $$$$$ and said to himself I can do that with lesser grade materials for $$, now I just have to figure out how

I wonder too. As a DIY'er there are times when one must draw the line and call in the pro's.

Personally, I value you, VM and a few others input on this thread. DONT STOP

I watched the crew that drilled my well. It went very smooth and they hit no issues which made it look 100 times easier. Either way unless I was pressed for water and was out of cash, I see no reason the mess with trying to save a few bucks after already having invested cash in the drilled and case hole. I'd rather go to work and be the pro at my job!
 

Odysseus99

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Boyce- type 'problems with pvc' into Google and have a look at the articles that come up. Then, if you want to research it further, google 'phthalates in pvc' and you'll find numerous credible sources critical of pvc for various reasons. To briefly summarize, vinyl itself is not a problematic material, but it is extremely brittle and degrades in sunlight so additives are put in it to deal with this. Lead is added, (or was) to reduce sunlight problems. Phthalates are added to soften the material and make it flexible. Chlorine is used in the process. All of these are very problematic materials. Chlorine makes dioxin when burned, phthalates disrupt hormone activity in your body, lead is a poison.

Several people made the argument that there are lots of harmful things out there, so why bother about pvc? The reason is that it is the worst of the worst. If you have any concerns about getting poisoned, the first thing to eliminate is the worst possibility, I guess. If you read up on it, pvc is one of the worst.

Could be they will find other additives for vinyl that are not harmful and some sort of vinyl formula can be made safe, but hasn't happened yet. I was wrong when I said the European union is going to outlaw pvc- what they are going to outlaw is the additives, particularly the phthalates.

And no, craigpump, I did not get a quote from the driller and then reject his cost. Also, I didn't dispute the advice I was given. I think you should read the thread more carefully before you shoot off the hip like that, this is a forum for discussion of ideas, not a forum for you to insult people without any basis.

Happy Holidays to you gentlemen, thanks for your input, and I suggest you at least do some research to be aware of what's going on with the pvc debate. Sounds like most of you were not aware that there was a debate, which is probably the way Exxon Mobile would prefer it stays.
 

akcooper9

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Boyce- type 'problems with pvc' into Google and have a look at the articles that come up..

The entire first page of results was from greenspace.org

Ok when I see results for different sources sure ill worry but greenspace would probably be the first to tell you that drinking water is bad too...especially from a private well :)
 

Craigpump

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Shoot off the hip?

No, just have given out advice to too many people here and on the job who ultimately revealed that they were looking for cheaper alternatives or a way to beat their contractors prices down.

Your own comment about potential poisoning from PVC towards Boyce is pretty snarky itself.

This guy thought he could do his own pump work too. He bought the wrong pump, the right wire and proceeded to drop it all to the bottom of his well. Luckily, I was able to get it out, reuse the wrong pump, install another new strong of wire and get him going. Total $$ saved, nothing, plus he got to listen to his wife tell him " I told you so".

Have fun!
 

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