Seriously Tough Plumbing

[Statjunk]

Hello Guys,

This is a very difficult situation that I'm currently in and would like to see if there is a good way to get out of it.

The house I'm in is a slab home with copper tubes below the slab that heat it through a boiler. I had to cut through the slab to move some drains around. In doing so I've severed several copper lines. I knew that this could occur but I figured and was told that I could simply solder up the lines afterwards.

Well the problem is that there are three lines that were actually imbedded in the concrete. So now I've got these nice little copper rings in the face of the concrete where the saw went through. The copper is soft and none of the pipes are round they are all oval shaped. Also the concrete is very hard. Very very hard.

How can I get this thing back together? Help please!

Tom

P.S. The only good news is that prior to this project I installed a forced air system so that is my back up. The problem is that the floor will always be cold if I can't get this fixed and I believe the house will always feel cold because of this.

 

[Jimbo]

You probably need some help here. First thing that surprises is copper embedded in poured concrete? Copper does not like concrete!

Anyway, to make repairs, you will have to jack hammer away at the concrete to expose at lease a few inches of copper. The out of round can be fixed with a swage. These fittings should probably be brazed, and not soft soldered.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hj]

copper

Copper radiant systems were always imbedded in the concrete. The closer they are to the surface the faster it heats and the less heat is lost to the ground underneath. The lines WILL have to be brazed, which is not a job for the average DIYer.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

You probably need some help here. First thing that surprises is copper embedded in poured concrete? Copper does not like concrete!

Anyway, to make repairs, you will have to jack hammer away at the concrete to expose at lease a few inches of copper. The out of round can be fixed with a swage. These fittings should probably be brazed, and not soft soldered.

Swage is exactly what I was thinking as I read his post..brazing though...not necessary on standard heat lines as long as he sleeves the copper in the cement to prevent contact. (soldering is hard enough on someone who isn't experienced..brazing is brutal)
A swage can be bought at HD...it's a tool the fits inside the pipe diameter and is hammered in to round it and widen it so that another pipe can fit inside.
Will need to be type K soft-roll copper where it's underground.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

HJ makes a good point...IF it's radiant floor heat, sleeving isn't a good idea...then it's time to braze

 

[Statjunk]

Crap^2.

Any body on here want to tackle this one? LOL.

Tom

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

mean, mean, mean.....

Hello Guys,

. Also the concrete is very hard. Very very hard.

How can I get this thing back together? Help please!



You are gong to have to chisle out that concrete all
around those cuts to get back a couple of inches to where
you can make some sort of good holding joint.....

and that is going to be mean, mean mean.......




It has to be an older system......and I wonder what condition
the copper is in anyway...how many years does it have leftin it>??



While you arE chiseling all week on that concrete, immagine that you are
some great artist, like Micheal Angelio ,
working on one of his master-pieces.....

you have to find your inner artist----plumber to get through this



it aslo helps pass the time...










.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark...you ain't right...you just ain't right.

 

[Statjunk]

Does anyone know of a way to bring heat back to the floor that is reasonable in cost?

Tom

 

[Statjunk]

I've got a plumber coming out for a quote tonight. What would be a fair price for this job. Three lines with chisel work and brazing.

Also what is brazing?

Thanks

Tom

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

I've got a plumber coming out for a quote tonight. What would be a fair price for this job. Three lines with chisel work and brazing.

Also what is brazing?

Thanks

Tom

After the fact it occurs to me that brazing new copper might not be the best idea...you could have PEX run in place of it.
Wirsbo Radiant flooring use plastic flex pipe in loops with a special manifold off the boiler...can't see the point of putting down more copper under concrete...ask the guy when he gets there.

 

[Statjunk]

Grumpy,

Why isn't it a good idea to braze new copper?

I can't get to the underside of the house because it is a slab house. So full replacement of the system isn't possible.



Well the plumber came last night. He was a really nice guy until he gave me the price! J.K. The price was very reasonable. He is going to patch all six lines and get the copper out of the concrete.

I've got a couple of questions for you pros to make sure they are doing this right.

He wants to get the copper exposed and then use couplers to join a new piece of pipe. Is this a good approach? I'm asking because someone said the pipe should be swaged.

Also he wants to use commercial copper in a stick form and not the type K. Is this ok?

I'm hoping a get some answers here today because he is coming on Monday to do the job.

Thanks

Tom

P.S. The quote was $325.

 

[Cass]

What kind of couplers is he going to use?

If he does it right for that price it sounds like a deal to me.

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Grumpy,

Why isn't it a good idea to braze new copper?

I can't get to the underside of the house because it is a slab house. So full replacement of the system isn't possible.



Well the plumber came last night. He was a really nice guy until he gave me the price! J.K. The price was very reasonable. He is going to patch all six lines and get the copper out of the concrete.

I've got a couple of questions for you pros to make sure they are doing this right.

He wants to get the copper exposed and then use couplers to join a new piece of pipe. Is this a good approach? I'm asking because someone said the pipe should be swaged.

Also he wants to use commercial copper in a stick form and not the type K. Is this ok?

I'm hoping a get some answers here today because he is coming on Monday to do the job.

Thanks

Tom

P.S. The quote was $325.

Tom, I think we were under the impression that it is radiant floor heat....but from what you just said, it sounds like it's baseboard.
Your plumber is right...get all the copper you can out from under the concrete...concrete is BAD for copper...eats at it.
Also, to solder six lengths of pipe for that price...not knowing how much in length sounds like this guys a good friend.
NO need for type "K" above ground....you better get this guys business card!

 

[hj]

joints

Copper in contact with the ground is not why brazing is required. The expansion and contraction of a hot water line that has both ends locked in place can pull any soft soldered joint apart.

 

[Statjunk]

Thanks for the responses guys!

Grumpy,

It is in ground heating. Not baseboard. So should I take the responses to mean that I do need the type K copper?

When they say commercial copper is that the same as type K copper?

If I do have to use type K copper does that mean I have to use Type K couplers? Or does he have to swage them? The plumber wants to use couplers because he said it would be difficult to get the pipes into position with a swage. The span is only 12" between the severed lines.

Thanks

Tom

 

[GrumpyPlumber]

Thanks for the responses guys!

Grumpy,

It is in ground heating. Not baseboard. So should I take the responses to mean that I do need the type K copper?

When they say commercial copper is that the same as type K copper?

If I do have to use type K copper does that mean I have to use Type K couplers? Or does he have to swage them? The plumber wants to use couplers because he said it would be difficult to get the pipes into position with a swage. The span is only 12" between the severed lines.

Thanks

Tom

He's using slip couplings which are fine...we were suggesting swage because it sounded like there was very little room for couplings.
I think when he's says "commercial" he means type "K"..be sure thats the case...IF he isn't...then it would likely mean a price increase...the stuffs expensive.

 

[Geniescience]

Copper in contact with the ground is not why brazing is required. The expansion and contraction of a hot water line that has both ends locked in place can pull any soft soldered joint apart.

makes sense. The same mechanical stresses can hurt electric heating cables under tiles, and that is why you have to run it back and forth in short runs (e.g. 6'), filing a large floor with a series of "zigzag panels".

 

[Statjunk]

Ok guys,

I'm hot on the trail of the k-type soft copper in smaller than 60' rolls. I'm only going to need 15' and that is with a lotof waste. So what I hope is my last and final question is:

If the plumber does the job with unions as opposed to swage'ing do the unions have to be the k-type or can they be the normal 1/2" fittings from HD?

Thanks a lot guys.

Tom

 

[Markts30]

Buy the "k" in a length..(20')
I think what he meant was he was NOT going to use soft - he was going to use hard drawn tubing...
That is fine...
You can get K in hard tube as well...
Fittings are standard size for all types of tubing (DWV fittings differ in thickness, but that is beside the point...LOL)... The same fittings work for type L, M, and K...
Ask the plumber if he was going to use ridgid K and, if not, ask him to....Understand that the price for the materials will go up if he quoted using L or M and you have him use K... (he should have quoted K anyway)
Chances are he did not want to buy a 60' roll of it either...
He can get the ridgid stuff in 20' sticks...
Types are color coded
- Red is M - thinnest wall pipe approved for pressure
- Blue is L (sometimes looks black)- standard pipe we use in commercial for water - thicker than M
- Green is K - Thickest wall available in copper tubing - we use it underground and where
spec'd
- Yellow is DWV - rated only for Drain waste and vent