screwed up the bathroom reno

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by plaza500, May 16, 2007.

  1. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    i will explain as briefly as i can

    remodeled an old bathroom, top floor, directly over dining room - no walls available to run pipes. the main outside wall down below is a 15' wide french door/window combo

    added a bigger tub (used to have standard size), explanded bathroom into closet next door to "bump" tub back a few feet give some more room.

    now main stack is in one corner far corner from tub, right next to toilet. so the drain for the tub must run all along the floor, collectting the sink drain as it goes, hang a 90 turn in the wall and continue along to the main stack. total run from tub to stack is probably 12' (8' run + 4' after the 90 degree turn). i added a vent at the sink, a vent at the tub and a vent at the 90 degree bend in the pipe. the drain pipes and vent pipes are all 1 1/2" abs.

    after the 90 degree bend the pipe turns into cast iron, i think it is 1 1/2 inch, the main stack is cast iron as well.

    the main drain is also low slope, as this entire span must fit in the floor - all of about 8" of space.

    now the bathroom is finished, tiles are down and the tub drains like crap. takes forever to empty the tub, and the sink flows back into the tub. the toilet works great, but its only a foot from the main stack.

    i have no idea what to do

    HELP!
    Last edited: May 16, 2007
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,129
    Location:
    New England
    Over 12', you need 3" of drop in the pipe. Do you have that? Describe or draw how you did the vents.
  3. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    well, i am concerned i amy have installed the wye backwards off the tub.

    here is a diagram showing the layout of the bathroom

    [​IMG]

    now here are pics of the tie ins for the vents, they all connect in the attic and go outside.

    the tub (excuse all the gooping of ABS - neverhtought i'd share the world the underside of my tub...) note the wye, i think i have it backwards? could this be the reason?

    [​IMG]

    sink
    [​IMG]

    at the 90 degree bend. .i tied into a clean out tucked in the wall. i assumed this would work.

    [​IMG]

    let me know if you need anything else to aid in helping, pics.disgrams, whatever .. i appreciate the help...
  4. wye being backwards

    your wye is backwards , but it is only a vent
    and it does not matter that much at all....

    its only an air vent above the long line
    and air does not know or care what way
    you put a wye in a line....

    if you let water out of the sink and it backs up
    in the tub you must have mismeasured somewhere

    so it has to be going the wrong way back to your tub....

    probably the line from where you tied in your sink to
    the tub and then out to the main stack.is going the wrong way......



    you might be able to totally disconnect the tub drain if you have
    the room to do it and try to shave off an inch or two
    perhaps raiseing that end of the drain to get it flowing the
    right way

    it looks like you put some sort of long sweep trap
    on that tub and lost a lot of fallll...

    look for a tighter tub trap if necessary.....

    that is your best hope....


    if that dont work its going to be a drywall cutting party

    in the living room
    Last edited: May 17, 2007
  5. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Is the center of the top pic a pic of the vent or trap?

    It seems to me that in relation to the waste and overflow that would be the trap and if it is it is not the right trap and it is installed wrong because it goes up at a 45 when it should be starting its fall.

    If it is the vent it will fill with water and not work.

    This would explane why it takes forever for the tub to drain.

    The sink going into the tub would have to be incorrect pitch on the drain lines.

    You will have to access everything to correct it.

    It is very possible that you have run drain lines where it was not possible to do so and have it work right / at all.

    If water is constantly sitting in the drains they will eventualy become coated with soap, Etc. and become totaly clogged.
    Last edited: May 17, 2007
  6. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    In pic #2 what is the Y and 45 for, and what is the coupling above it that we can't see.
  7. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    the top pic is the tub, the tub has a p-trap under it, that flows out to the wye which is right next to the p-trap / overflow where it meets the wye going both up to the vent (which is what you see) and out to the drain. the slopeing up that you see is the pitch up of the wye going to the vent. above that it is 45'd again to go straight up through the ceiling for the vent.
  8. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    and having the wye backwards, as it is one of the wyes with the long goose neck coming off it, i worry that the water will block the air, if it was reversed the air would slope down the pitch and at least help more.
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,815
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    drain

    1. the "Y" is okay, it should be the other way, but will work fine as it is.
    2. That is too long a run for 1 1/2" pipe, it should have been changed to 2".
    3. The sink is "S" trapped
    4. The AAV at that point is useless.
    5. The drain may be partially plugged.
  10. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    the "Y" is okay, it should be the other way, but will work fine as it is.

    so no help to cut it and flip it?

    2. That is too long a run for 1 1/2" pipe, it should have been changed to 2".

    i thought about it too, but the end cast pipe is only 1 1/2 so that s why i ran 1 1/2.... with the cast being 1 1/2 is it worth ripping up the floor to put in 2"?

    3. The sink is "S" trapped

    what does that mean? - cause my tub is kind of set up the same way, sort of..... explain s-trapped...

    4. The AAV at that point is useless.

    automatic air vent? i am not using them anywhere

    5. The drain may be partially plugged

    i agree....
  11. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    anyone have any answers to above?
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,129
    Location:
    New England
    When you come out of the sink, there should be a wye on the horizontal short run end as it goes down...down to the drain, up to a vent. If you follow the pipe, the inlet and outlet are essentially parallel - it forms an S. They aren't as reliable as a proper P-trap. If you added an air admittance valve on top of that wye you put in where it went as high as possible but still allowed it to be removed, you'd be adding a code approved (at least most places) vent to that sink. Same idea with the tub if it is run the same way. A 1-1/2" stack for multiple fixtures is too small, it really should be bigger. using pi*r^2, you'll see a 2" pipe is much larger in area than a 1.5" job.
  13. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    so you are saying the vent off the sink is doing nothing? :(

    also, the tub is not looped around, cause it does not go down, instead it loops for the p-trap, then straight sideways to the drain. could i add vents anywhere in the line to aid in the drainage?

    or do i need to rip up my floor and re lie to pipe. also, if the cast pipe is 1 1/2, is it worth adding a 2" drain?

    anyone?
  14. woops, i think that may be the wrong way to describe it, Jim. It takes a SanTee to connect an AAV on a P trap arm. Not a Wye. But then again, I may not have been able to follow your wording.

    The fellow posting his problems needs to do more homework before asking for more explanation. For example, the difference between a P trap and an S trap is easy to find here and elsewhere on the internet. Then, how to fix that S trap with an AAV is easy to find out about, here and elsewhere. A recent thread from this month covered it here.

    Overall I am not optimistic. Too many obstacles to clear communication. The first diagram posted is missing important information. The photos do not show clearly the things needed to be seen either. The poster is asking questions that show he hasn't caught on to many things. He explains why he did things (that was what was available), instead of finding out what to do now.

    David
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,129
    Location:
    New England
    You never want to go from bigger drain necked down to smaller pipe - you are just asking for a clog.

    re-read the responses made by the pros...

    What is the slope of the drain lines that are there? Are they 1/4" per foot or more? A small amount less would probably work, but you really want it at least close or over that slope.

    It would be fairly easy to add an AAV under the sink. Not sure about the tub. Ideally, you use a real atmospheric vent, but that would entail a lot more destruction.
  16. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    okay, so i get you about the s-trap vs p-trap, the tub is p-trapped, the sink is s-trapped, but the s-trap on the sink i made by me and not a proper one, and it is vented in correctly.... if i add an automatic vent to the sink, change it over to a proper s trap it will help?

    as for the tub,

    the p-trap goes straight out to the sloping line. the line has to be sloping as the tub will drain out. the odd part is how the sink can empty in the tub, but then drains out. what happened to gravity? can the water be sucked out?

    i have reread above....over and over... its hard to take pics of the tub set up, but is just your standard p trap with a line out, and a vent sticking out of the horizontal line. is there a better way to vent the tub?
  17. coach606

    coach606 New Member

    Messages:
    144
    Location:
    Illinois
    slope?

    Nothing has happened to gravity.

    It was hard for me to interpret your pics, but my guess is that the slope between the tub and the sink is messed up. I don't know how that happens as I'm sure you measured it when you did it. Are the dwv pipes supported? Clamped?

    If you feel it's a clog, snake the line, if not, check the slope (I'm not sure what kind of access you have). I recently had a strange problem on a bathroom I was adding. I roughed it in, passed the rough inspection, but weeks later put a stand pipe in my closet bend and realized that it was sloped the wrong way! I had to open the floor and fix it. Believe me, I checked that slope a thousand times with a level with a wood block on it. I have no idea how the slope became messed up. But I cut it out and fixed it.

    I am not a pro. But I think the danger of the S trap is more siphoning than backing up against gravity into your tub.

    Good luck. It seems like the pros are saying that they can't give you an answer by looking at your picture. Your system should work, other than the S trap. But that shouldn't cause a backup into your tub.

    As far as the 1 1/2" versus 2" line goes, I believe that diameter would be required because of the fixture drainage units. Showers are also plumbed at 2" because of the danger of the pan filling up. Either way, that shouldn't cause your your sink to backup your tub.

    I know some people hate long posts by people who aren't pros. But honestly, sometimes it takes a DIY'er to explain it to a DIY'er. I'm sure most of you pros can't even remember what it was like to know as little about plumbing as myself.

    Best of luck with your problem.
  18. no it is not DFUs in this case. No distances have been mentioned, so I think the master plumber who said it was distance was using his eyeballs and his beanie to calculate distances. Assuming the information provided by the drawing is accurate.

    To draw plumbing well enough to convey real information, you need both a side view and a top view, and you need to show the geometry at the joints, i.e. Tee's or Wyes. I'll wait for more informaion.

    I can think of one explanation as to how sink drain water can end up in the tub first before going down the drain -- if a sink drain Wye was put the wrong way around, or if a Tee was used. And if there is only an AAV and not a real vent before the tub, since the AAV only lets air in and doesn't let air out. Does the tub gurgle a bit before the sink water backs up into it? Does the water eventually drain out?

    david
  19. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    thank you for your words,

    well, i am going to snake the drain, if i can manage to get past the p trap. i think there is a clog in there, the tub was working fine for a while, it only recently started bacing up during a shower (tub always took forever to drain)

    also the sink didn;t always drain into the tub, i think there may be a clog right at the joint between the two, and also may be that the slop got screwe dup somehow - but i have no idea how that could happen.....

    uf this does not work i will add an automstic vent as high as i can off the top of the s trap, and i will swap the s trap to be a proper one. maybe that will stop the siponing.

    i';ll keep you posted...
  20. plaza500

    plaza500 DIY Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Canada
    well i got everything fixed, and i want to thank you guys for helping me to understand what i did wrong...

    as far as the s-trapped sink, i added an automatic vent as per suggestion.

    as far as the tub, i removed all the guts i had installed and started fresh. i cut a larger hole in the floor to enable me to lift the pipe a bit more. i put a special type of overflow drain thing to allow me to run the p-trap from the drain, not the overflow.

    everything works perfect now, better than it ever has....

    again, thanks... here are some pics

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
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