Running wire for island receptacle in kitchen remodel

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by TJanak, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. TJanak

    TJanak Member

    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    South TX
    From what I have read, I am required by the NEC to have a receptacle in a kitchen island. (I would like one anyways) Problem is this is a kitchen remodel and it never had an island. I would need to go from the bar to the island, ~40", to supply power. Slab construction.

    Is there any way with minimal concrete busting?

    I'm thinking drop cord from a reel at the ceiling :cool: The wife isn't too keen on that, though.

    What are my options?
  2. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,560
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Take up the concrete and I agree with your wife but for different reasons.
  3. TJanak

    TJanak Member

    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    South TX
    Do I use conduit or direct burial kleenex, or something else? The rest of the wiring is nm kleenex.
  4. Chad Schloss

    Chad Schloss Member

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    Location:
    USA
    (I love the new word for r o m e x (a southwire product) maybe we should use some of it to blow our noses :)
  5. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    San Diego
    As far as I know, you don't have to "bust out" the concrete. I think you can groove it an lay in either UF or conduit. Speedey will straigten me out if I have this wrong!
  6. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    What if you knocked in two holes, a hole at each end and then looped under the slab?
    That way you could save the floor. 40" isn't very far to go.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  7. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    NY State, USA
    You'd need to get at least 2" of cover, so it is best to cut the slab about 4" wide down to the dirt and lay conduit.
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Location:
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    If you want to tile this area afterwards, you'll want to put in some rebar to help lock it into the existing slab. That can get tricky if the trench is narrow as it's tougher to drill dowels into the slab from a narrow trench. Not sure how you'd mine enough to get a wire under there from each end? Waterjet? Kind of tricky keeping it straight? Misread 40" as 40'...a waterjet could likely mine a tunnel under the slabe with just two holes.

    Make sure that the slab is not a post tensioned slab...that cannot be cut or you'll have problems, plus, it can be dangerous as well. Hit one of the high tension reinforcement cables, and it will ruin your day if not your life. These tend to be used in unstable soils or in areas prone to earthquakes.

    If there's any way to do a counter to ceiling feature, then your wiring gets much easier.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  9. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    When I plumbed my basement bath, I cut the trenches with a regular circular saw and diamond blades. Cut about 3/4" deep each pass until the cut was about 3" deep and then broke it out with a 10 lb hammer. Trickled water from a bike water bottle and followed with the shop vac to keep the dust down.

    I cut about 40 feet, and if I had to do it over, I would rent the right tool. BUT, in your case for 2- 40" cuts, a real concrete saw would be way too much hassle & mess.
  10. kevink1955

    kevink1955 Member

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    Location:
    L.I. New York
    The new word is also trademarked, wonder how long before Terry gets an E-Mail from them
  11. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

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    2,560
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    North Carolina
    sorry can't read
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Cut a groove in the concrete and lay the conduit in it. It will be cemented in so it does NOT need 2" of cover. It is NOT the same as installing a conduit BEFORE the concrete is poured. I hope when you say "A outlet", or "I would like to have ONE anyway", that you do NOT mean you will install a SINGLE outlet on the island.
  13. TJanak

    TJanak Member

    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    South TX
    I was thinking the same thing as Terry suggested. Just punch two holes and tunnel under the slab. I bet I could go 20" from each end by hand with some tools and maybe a 4-6" hole at each end.

    I also was thinking about the groove idea. Does it need 2" of cover or not? Does it even need conduit or could a person just use UF or whatever approved wire in a shallow (1"?) trench?
  14. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    I have seen that done. I can't tell you if code approves, although that job was definitely on a permit so presumably was signed off ,
  15. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

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    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    I would put it in conduit even if not required. It will be easy on that short run.

    I would not dig out underneath with regular tools... if you leave a pocket under there, the slab support will be compromised and you could get slab cracking, which will most likely transfer to your tile. If you're going to go that route, you need to remove only the amount of dirt needed to put in some conduit, which could be tricky w/o making very large holes on each end.

    Def put at least 2 outlets in, even if its a very small island. You need a minimum of one every 4 feet, one on any counter 2' wide, and w/in 2' of the ends. You can never have too many outlets in a kitchen, more is better.
  16. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    NY State, USA
    Got a code reference for this?
    HOW is this not the same? How is laying it in a groove ANY different than a shallow trench?

    Please read 300.5 very carefully. It is a cover requirement. Meaning how much cover on top of the conduit or cable. NOT how deep it is in a trench.
  17. Speedy Petey

    Speedy Petey Licensed Electrical Contractor

    Messages:
    996
    Location:
    NY State, USA
    Note #1 from T300.5
  18. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    quote; if you leave a pocket under there, the slab support will be compromised and you could get slab cracking

    You are underestimating the strength of concrete. I had to break into the floor of a supermarket once, and the ENTIRE subsoil had settled 18" so the entire floor was being supported by the foundations for the roof columns, and it was NOT cracking even with the public traffic through the store. In many cases, residential floors already have a void under them, which makes it easier to break a hole in the floor. You definitely want a conduit for the wires, if for no other reason than future changes in the island.
  19. TJanak

    TJanak Member

    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    South TX
    After reading 300.5 it looks like Petey is right. Need the cover. So that leaves me going under the slab. But I am still trying to work it through a hole at each end rather than a full trench through the slab.

    After reading further, it looks like I may be able to use type MI or MC cable direct buried under the slab. If this is true, is there protection/sleeving needed coming up through the slab? All I find is "conductors entering a building shall be protected at the point of entrance."
  20. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

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    4,451
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    If you are going thru all that work, I would think that Conduit would be well worth the cost.
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