Rough plumbing = sewer gas

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Statjunk

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Can you guys explain to me why that section would siphon the line?

Is it because there is too much slope in the pipe?

This is a great thread.

Thanks

Tom
 

mattt19

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I can't figure out how to cut the line and attach a new section of pipe. The copper supply line in the photo is tight against the section of pipe. If I cut it where the pipe joins the fitting I'll be unable to attach a new fitting to this section of the pipe. Nothing wider than 1 1/2" pipe will fit between the wall and supply line. Is it possible to remove the pipe from the fitting that passes through the wall? Is there any other solution to this?
 

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Statjunk

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You can cut the copper and get it out of the way. Then put it all back together.

Tom
 

MG

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Get a Sawzall...as you'll be cutting out that entire funky section AND the sanitary tee its going to be joining into, along with some of the vertical so you can move up the tee into the right position. The blade length of the Sawzall should give you the room to work around that copper.
 

mattt19

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The blade length of the Sawzall should give you the room to work around that copper.

I don't have a problem cutting the pipe. The problem is that I can't slide anything thicker than 1 1/2" past the pipe. If I cut this small section of pipe,either before or after the copper pipe, I won't be able to put a coupling on the remaining piece. The coupling would be to big to fit behind the supply line.

I don't want to remove the copper pipe. I'm not a plumber and this is beyond what I feel comfortable doing. If that's the only solution than I either have to have the original plumber correct this (he missed it the first time when it would have been easy to correct) or find a new one.

I'm hoping there's a way to do this that I'm overlooking.

Thanks
 

MG

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If that lav is behind the wall as close as I think it is, I'd cut everything out to the sanitary tee including the 90 degree bend to the lav. Once you have all that out you should be able to get a 1.5" section in there without a problem - it would be a longer section with no coupling. From the pic you posted it looks like there is plenty of room to work around it.
 

WestcoastPlumber

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It looks like the guy installed the santee first, then later, mounted the sink and found out he put it to low.....so he tried to fix it:eek:

I am a licensed, insured plumbing contractor here in los angeles, are you sure you hired the same? that is plumbing 101.

I may know him.......I have seen work like this alot in this area, due to the amount of hack, unlicensed, un-insured "Plumbers" in this area.

One day people will wake up;)
 

mattt19

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WCP,

I might give you a call, but first I want to contact the original plumber and see what he says. He's a licensed plumber. I got three bids on the job. they were all within $100 of each other. None were cheap by any means. He spent the most time here and gave a detailed estimate of what he was going to do. Unlike the other two he was the one doing the work, not just the estimate.

MG,

I think you're suggesting removing the entire section, from the sink to the drain/vent pipe, correct? Basically there's no way to do this without re-plumbing the entire sink.
 

mattt19

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MG,

I looked at the fittings again. There's a bit of an obstacle with the 90 degree bend. There's no problem removing it but replacing it's a issue. The wall is a mud wall. It's over an inch thick and formed tight around the fitting. I can remove the fitting by cutting it into sections but I wouldn't be able to fit a new fitting through the same hole. The socket will be to big to fit through the hole. Is there any other fitting other than the traditional 1 1/2" coupling that can be used to join the pipes?
 
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WestcoastPlumber

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WCP,

I might give you a call, but first I want to contact the original plumber and see what he says. He's a licensed plumber. I got three bids on the job. they were all within $100 of each other. None were cheap by any means. He spent the most time here and gave a detailed estimate of what he was going to do. Unlike the other two he was the one doing the work, not just the estimate.

MG,

I think you're suggesting removing the entire section, from the sink to the drain/vent pipe, correct? Basically there's no way to do this without re-plumbing the entire sink.





I can tell you how I would fix it.

First I would cut the 2" drain, and the 11/2" vent, drop the trap and remove the mess that is there, includes cutting out the santee and the 1/4 bend picking up the trap and RE-DO the whole mess.

Sorry, I don't try to work with whats there, it is a mess and to time consuming.

If the tile and mortar is tight against the 1/4 bend, that is wrong anyways, it should not be tight against the pipe, there needs to be room for expansion.

This is what a escusion is used for, so a proper gap is left around the penetration.
 

mattt19

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The plumber came out on Friday to look at the line. He confirmed that he put in the trap arm but not the sanitary tee. He curved the trap arm so it would join up with the sanitary tee. I asked him about it being a S trap and being pitched so steep. He doesn't see any problem with the pitch. I showed him the codes but he dismissed them saying the trap wasn't the problem. English is his second language (he's German) so it can be hard to communicate with him.
The sink has never smelled when he's been here.
To him, the fact that the smell isn't constant is an indication that it's not the pitch of the trap arm that's causing the problem. He thinks the smell is from the "gunk" he removed from the drain pipe when he was here before.
He'll fix the trap arm if I want him to but he pointed out several things that could make this problematic. First there's the issue of the supply line hindering access to the arm. He'll cut the line to gain access to the arm and then re-connect the arm. If he does this there's the possibility that the supply line will be proud of the studs (they're 2 by 3's). Second, to cut the sanitary tee he'd need to cut several inches below the bottom of the tee. If you look at the picture you can see that there's blocking an inch below the tee. He'd have to remove some of this to be able to cut the pipe. There's a shower on the other side and he's worried that when he removes the blocking he could damage the shower pan. And lastly, the walls are mud walls. The wall bulges into the cavity conforming to the shape of the pipes. The wall appears to bulge in where the new pipe would run. This would cause the pipe to be proud of the studs. It also possible that it would'nt line up with the new sanitary tee.
I know what he did is wrong and should be corrected (though not by him). Given the potential obstacles in correcting this I'm wondering how bad is the configuration of the trap arm? My understanding of the code is that the trap arm must pitch 1/4" but not more than the diameter of the pipe - 1 1/2" - (please correct me if I'm wrong). The pipe drops 2 1/4" to 2 1/2", making it off by 3/4" to 1". How much off is to much?
I went a year and a half with this configuration of the trap arm without smelling sewer gas. It was about a month after the rough in for the second bath that the sink in the first bath began to smell. Not constantly, but periodically over the span of two weeks. After he cleaned the drain arm there was the faint smell of sewer gas twice. It's been three weeks and I haven't smelled anything. I've tried to duplicate the problem by making the trap siphon without any luck.
The potential problems of installing the new arm and the fact that the drain doesn't smell plus the inability to make the drain siphon dry makes me unsure of what to do.
Any opinions?

Thanks again for all the help and advice.
 

mattt19

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The smell of sewer gas was coming from the sink today. The dishwasher had just drained so I assumed that it caused the trap to siphon dry. I removed the trap expecting it to be empty. When I removed the trap there was the unmistakable smell of sewer gas coming from the trap arm but the trap was completely full of water.
Is it possible to smell sewer gas when the trap is full of water ? :confused:
 

Jadnashua

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Is the sink new or old? The overflow can start to grow some nasties and a good cleaning of the sink's overflow might solve the problem.
 

GregO

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fix it

You've got that wall opened up, so you now have the perfect opportunity to make it right so you never have to worry about it. I recommend repairing it as Terry and others have pointed out because if you do, you won't have to worry about it down the road. Greg

The plumber came out on Friday to look at the line. He confirmed that he put in the trap arm but not the sanitary tee. He curved the trap arm so it would join up with the sanitary tee. I asked him about it being a S trap and being pitched so steep. He doesn't see any problem with the pitch. I showed him the codes but he dismissed them saying the trap wasn't the problem. English is his second language (he's German) so it can be hard to communicate with him.
The sink has never smelled when he's been here.
To him, the fact that the smell isn't constant is an indication that it's not the pitch of the trap arm that's causing the problem. He thinks the smell is from the "gunk" he removed from the drain pipe when he was here before.
He'll fix the trap arm if I want him to but he pointed out several things that could make this problematic. First there's the issue of the supply line hindering access to the arm. He'll cut the line to gain access to the arm and then re-connect the arm. If he does this there's the possibility that the supply line will be proud of the studs (they're 2 by 3's). Second, to cut the sanitary tee he'd need to cut several inches below the bottom of the tee. If you look at the picture you can see that there's blocking an inch below the tee. He'd have to remove some of this to be able to cut the pipe. There's a shower on the other side and he's worried that when he removes the blocking he could damage the shower pan. And lastly, the walls are mud walls. The wall bulges into the cavity conforming to the shape of the pipes. The wall appears to bulge in where the new pipe would run. This would cause the pipe to be proud of the studs. It also possible that it would'nt line up with the new sanitary tee.
I know what he did is wrong and should be corrected (though not by him). Given the potential obstacles in correcting this I'm wondering how bad is the configuration of the trap arm? My understanding of the code is that the trap arm must pitch 1/4" but not more than the diameter of the pipe - 1 1/2" - (please correct me if I'm wrong). The pipe drops 2 1/4" to 2 1/2", making it off by 3/4" to 1". How much off is to much?
I went a year and a half with this configuration of the trap arm without smelling sewer gas. It was about a month after the rough in for the second bath that the sink in the first bath began to smell. Not constantly, but periodically over the span of two weeks. After he cleaned the drain arm there was the faint smell of sewer gas twice. It's been three weeks and I haven't smelled anything. I've tried to duplicate the problem by making the trap siphon without any luck.
The potential problems of installing the new arm and the fact that the drain doesn't smell plus the inability to make the drain siphon dry makes me unsure of what to do.
Any opinions?

Thanks again for all the help and advice.
 
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